Tank Restoration

[Tim the Tank Nut]

disassemble
clean

lubricate

re-assemble

there is no other way

[nitflegal]

On 11/22/2024 at 3:19 PM, Tim the Tank Nut said:

disassemble
clean

lubricate

re-assemble

there is no other way

Correction, there is no other GOOD way.  I shudder to think what all that silica will do to every single moving part; its scary to see how much you can grind things down that way.  But sadly, lots of people and teams have utterly destroyed an awful lot of engines/transmissions/running gear/etc. by trying to cut corners.  

[Stuart Galbraith]

Beautiful polish restoration of a JS-2 they found on an East German bombing range.

 

[old_goat]

2 hours ago, Stuart Galbraith said:

Beautiful polish restoration of a JS-2 they found on an East German bombing range.

Incredible work. Panzer Farm is one of the best restoration teams in the world.

BTW, since you are british, I dont think I need to introduce you Kevin Wheatcroft. On Facebook, he recently posted his plans for this year, this is also quite amazing:

- Completion of the restoration of a M10 tank destroyer

 - Completion of the restoration of 4 Hetzers

 - Continuing work on 3x Tiger Is (2x to full running condition, 1x static only)

 - Continuing work on 2x Tiger IIs (both to running condition)

- Starting work on 4(!!!) Panthers, (1x Ausf.D, 2x Ausf.A, 1x Ausf.G), all to running condition

 

[rmgill]

I will opine on the newer materials issue on restorations having worked one for the past decade and a half. 
 

In Vandal we have used some modern rubber parts because the original rubber parts are just not available. In some cases, cork is just not long lasting OR is sub standard. So you go with nitrile or viton. 
 

I have been fighting with a engine jack pump that leaks. I am going to have to replace the original cork seal with a modern rubber seal to get a good and proper seal and not ooze jack oil out on the driver’s right hip. 
 

If I were to pay the thousands of dollars necessary to have a machine shop cut and fab a new gear for the transmission, you are darn tootin I would have them use better modern alloys because the authenticity of a more weak component is  less ideal that a gear that fails again and scrags the entire gear box. 
 

After we suffered bearing damage from an oil system casualty, the engine shop milled shell bearing pockets rather than pouring new babbet bearings that would have a percentage of the life span. 

[Stuart Galbraith]

14 hours ago, old_goat said:

Incredible work. Panzer Farm is one of the best restoration teams in the world.

BTW, since you are british, I dont think I need to introduce you Kevin Wheatcroft. On Facebook, he recently posted his plans for this year, this is also quite amazing:

- Completion of the restoration of a M10 tank destroyer

 - Completion of the restoration of 4 Hetzers

 - Continuing work on 3x Tiger Is (2x to full running condition, 1x static only)

 - Continuing work on 2x Tiger IIs (both to running condition)

- Starting work on 4(!!!) Panthers, (1x Ausf.D, 2x Ausf.A, 1x Ausf.G), all to running condition

 

On a rather lesser scale of things (though still commendable considering the original engine had the bottom effectively sheer off), Mr Hewes got his ex Polish T34/85 running again.

 

[Stuart Galbraith]

8 hours ago, rmgill said:

I will opine on the newer materials issue on restorations having worked one for the past decade and a half. 
 

In Vandal we have used some modern rubber parts because the original rubber parts are just not available. In some cases, cork is just not long lasting OR is sub standard. So you go with nitrile or viton. 
 

I have been fighting with a engine jack pump that leaks. I am going to have to replace the original cork seal with a modern rubber seal to get a good and proper seal and not ooze jack oil out on the driver’s right hip. 
 

If I were to pay the thousands of dollars necessary to have a machine shop cut and fab a new gear for the transmission, you are darn tootin I would have them use better modern alloys because the authenticity of a more weak component is  less ideal that a gear that fails again and scrags the entire gear box. 
 

After we suffered bearing damage from an oil system casualty, the engine shop milled shell bearing pockets rather than pouring new babbet bearings that would have a percentage of the life span. 

It comes down to whether you want a pattern for future generations to look at and say 'that is how it was', or you want something reliable that can tool around an arena without dying in a pillar of smoke.

I have sympathy for Bovington, they have the first Tiger ever captured. Do they run the ass off it because its a cash cow, or do they respect the history and one day park it up for future generations? TBF, its run far longer than any Tiger in history ever ran, so I can see the perspecive of looking after it. But the big kid in me says 'let it run, LET IT RUN!!!!'

Its like with steam locomotives. As long as there is a pattern for how they were originally, I see absolutely nothing wrong for some of the breed experimenting with blast pipe improvements to get the optimum use out of the coal or oil they are burning. It makes sense environmentally (and those arguments are going to gain power in the coming decades whether we agree or not), it makes sense economically to run the buggers as cheaply as you can. As long as the original history isnt lost through meddling, its no problem as far as Im concerned.

[Roman Alymov]

8 hours ago, Stuart Galbraith said:

It comes down to whether you want a pattern for future generations to look at and say 'that is how it was', or you want something reliable that can tool around an arena without dying in a pillar of smoke.

In theory (or in ideal world, or both) is is the problem of keeping proper restoration documentation (the same way as it is done for art pieces, like old paintings etc.). On practice, i'm affraid, we are next to the last generation of people who are relatively on mass interested in old armor and within few decades interest to old tanks will be down to the level of current interest to Napoleon era artillery (yes there are some enthusiasts, but few and far apart, handful of people even for big country like Russia). My rule of thomb is it is about 1 person per million to do practical tank restoration as volunteer on regular basis (so big urban centre like Moscow could give you about 15 volunteers). And this number is falling, not growing, since new generations have new toys to play. So i'm affraid there will hardly be "future generations to look at and say 'that is how it was'". That was debated numerous times here in Kubinka Museum restoration team, when it was still Kubinka Museum, not Patriot Park.

     Coming back to materials, not always proper material is awailable even if exact type is known. For example the material for gaskets for Panther engine "heads" is no more produced in Germany for "enbvirionment" reasoins (it was with asbestos), despite it was still awailable untill 1980th....

   

[old_goat]

8 hours ago, Stuart Galbraith said:

I have sympathy for Bovington, they have the first Tiger ever captured. Do they run the ass off it because its a cash cow, or do they respect the history and one day park it up for future generations? TBF, its run far longer than any Tiger in history ever ran, so I can see the perspecive of looking after it. But the big kid in me says 'let it run, LET IT RUN!!!!'

Spare parts can be manufactured now. Not cheap, but not prohibitively expensive. Also, there are new technologies. Panzer Farm is currently rebuilding the engine of Saumur's Tiger, and they are treating the pistons with special coats to not only make the engine more reliable, but also to lenghten its life.

Interestingly, Russians also made such small improvements to their engines. There is a company, named Batmaster Istra, they developed new pistons for old engines like V2, V55, V401. This significantly reduced oil consumption and lenghtened the service life. And if I remember correctly, these are the guys who are behind the restoration of vehicles exhibited in Padikovo museum. They did top class work.

[old_goat]

4 minutes ago, Roman Alymov said:

In theory (or in ideal world, or both) is is the problem of keeping proper restoration documentation (the same way as it is done for art pieces, like old paintings etc.).

Panzer Farm does exactly that. They are making 3d scans of engines, gearboxes, hydraulic pumps, etc. for future use, and to crate documentation for future manufacturing. And not only for ww2 german stuff. Also for post war soviet vehicles.

[Stuart Galbraith]

There was an episode of Oz Armour where they show Panzer farm doing the scanning. It's very impressive work.

[Stuart Galbraith]

Re Wheatcroft collection, Mr Hewes and co move a Panther Ausf A that looks in remarkable shape for all the time it spent on a gunnery range.

 

[old_goat]

23 hours ago, Stuart Galbraith said:

Re Wheatcroft collection, Mr Hewes and co move a Panther Ausf A that looks in remarkable shape for all the time it spent on a gunnery range.

Hewes has quite cool tow trucks!  As for Wheatcroft, he is a really nice guy I think. I talked with him several times on Facebook. Btw, Im really curious where did he get at least 8 Maybach HL230s for his Tigers and Panthers. I know he cooperated with Armytech (czech firm specializing in overhauling german and czech engines), but maybe he also works with Panzer Farm...

Edited February 18, 2025 by old_goat

[Stuart Galbraith]

Yeah, British Army Fodens I think. When the British army was single handedly keeping the UK truck industry alive. Good kit too, for a price.

From what I heard on the Combat Dealers episode where the engine for the Panther now in Australia was sourced, it seems after the war a lot of them ended up being used as generators in Eastern Europe, particularly Czechoslovakia, and they developed a skillset in maintaining them. i guess its logical when you stop to think about it. They had little else than war production when the war ended, it made sense to utilize what they had to get the economy going.

Its a pity they are so secretive. I cant help but think the tours they woudl get would be prodigious if they opened up more.

[old_goat]

1 hour ago, Stuart Galbraith said:

From what I heard on the Combat Dealers episode where the engine for the Panther now in Australia was sourced,

Armytech again...

1 hour ago, Stuart Galbraith said:

Its a pity they are so secretive. I cant help but think the tours they woudl get would be prodigious if they opened up more.

Wheatcroft? Yes, the collection is a bit indeed secretive. But I think he wrote it that when the exhibition halls will be done, the collection will open up more.

[old_goat]

Not really restoration (for now), but still interesting. Hewes got a Chieftain bridgelayer from the tank museum to repair, and later add a bridge to it. I always liked these things. Very interesting how the designers in each country solved the problem of laying and later picking up the bridge. My personal favorite is the BLG-60 or the MT-55 (very similar, but not the same), but this one is also very cool.

 

[Stuart Galbraith]

I can remember going to the 1980 Aldershot show (when they were nearly brand new) and seeing one deploy right in front of me. As a 7 year old it made a deep impression on me.

Yeah, I'm looking forward to seeing what they do with this one. Hopefully we will see it work, and watch a Chieftain gun tank deploy over it.

[alejandro_]

Impressive work, it's really interesting how many components can be manufactured nowadays.

Workshop Wednesday: The Combat Dealers Panther Restoration

 

 

Edited February 27, 2025 by alejandro_

[Stuart Galbraith]

Yeah, if you havent seen the combat dealers episodes, its worth watching. Thing that amused me, they sourced a Maybach engine in Eastern Europe. When they tore it down, they found I think the tappet valves had been machined through to half their size, which would under heavy use probably have cracked, and evidence of sabotage. You idly have to wonder how many of the big cats werent really that unreliable a design, and just fell to bits because some engineer somewhere building the engines or transmission screwed them over.

IIRC, the Panther in the Littlefield collection was found to have cigarette butt stuffed in its oil feed lines. Seems like Maybach had a real problem...

[old_goat]

8 hours ago, Stuart Galbraith said:

You idly have to wonder how many of the big cats werent really that unreliable a design, and just fell to bits because some engineer somewhere building the engines or transmission screwed them over.

Yes, exactly. Nazis widely used slave labor, and naturally, slaves didnt like to be slaves. Sabotage was common. In the video above they are talking about one such attempt. Of course, we still cannot say that the Panther was super reliable by its design, no it wasnt. But german engineers and designers werent idiots. Jentz also noted that if the Panther was maintained properly it had a quite acceptable reliability. A while ago, I think I had also talked with Wheatcroft about this on Facebook in the beginning of the 4x Hetzer restoration project, he also said that they found evidence of sabotage in one of them. 

[Stuart Galbraith]

I think there were underlying transmission problems on Jadpanther, even though it was supposedly beefed up. Supposedly Wheatcroft were having real problems with the Jagdpanther turning reliably. Then a WW2 Jagdpanther commander told them they got it right, because theirs during the war was just the same!

That said, I think Panther was basically alright. I've not seen the official report of the British Army evaluation of them in Germany, but I've not heard any particular horror stories either. Presumably because they took their time assembling them, and were able to pick up on sabotage when putting them together.

It would probably be a good idea for a historian to do a paper on the subject. As a significant portion of surviving German tanks seem to have sabotage problems, it out to cause a reappraisal of German afv reliability. Not all the problems can be down to strategic bombing or bad design.

 

This was good, just as long as they don't screw it up by putting a Ford Transit engine in it...

 

 

Edited February 27, 2025 by Stuart Galbraith

[old_goat]

44 minutes ago, Stuart Galbraith said:

That said, I think Panther was basically alright. I've not seen the official report of the British Army evaluation of them in Germany, but I've not heard any particular horror stories either. Presumably because they took their time assembling them, and were able to pick up on sabotage when putting them together.

When Wheatcroft announced the 4x Panther restoration recently, I asked him about the final drives. He told me that they are already restored, and he is confident about them. With careful driving, it should be all OK. 

[Stuart Galbraith]

Just don't go driving through any Polish rivers...

Incidentally, this was interesting. No idea of the date when found, perhaps Roman knows something about it.

https://x.com/YPasholok/status/1894842473194659875?t=IWQEsrAzLVLeytNn3KT58A&s=19

[Mike1158]

My limited knowledge of the Panther suggests much the same.  IIRC, the SIX built by UK supervised German workers were as reliable as anything else of the day

 

I also heard the stories of saboutage many times and agree, if it were I in their shoes would hopefully do the same.

 

Now, with all the 3d scanning and printing, we should be able to reproduce just about any part needed.  I do not suppose we will ever get a 100% factual and evidenciary accouint of reliability of these engines/vehicles.

[Stuart Galbraith]

Supposedly one of the vehicles built for the British Army wa sa Bergepanther. I like to think that it helped provide some lessons for Centurion ARV Mk2. It was unfortunately cut up, but the winch on it remained In a British museum, before being eventually being refitted on a Bergepanther for a museum in German IIRC.

Dont know how many Jagdpanthers they built. There is one in the Tank museum, but ive a nagging feeling there was at least 2.

I just like to think somewhere there is a multimillionaire whom wants to spend its fortune wisely solving problems like this. I suspect driver trouble was part of the issue as well. Germany did not prewar have as heavily a motorized economy as other parts of Europe, and they had real issues finding enough people who were skilled mechanics. 

Edited February 28, 2025 by Stuart Galbraith