Tank Restoration

[Manic Moran]

The replica Ha-Go is in Texas already, I saw it a couple weeks ago.

The Chi Ha is being cleaned for movement. It's in an... interesting state. The mechanicals are generally there, but the rest of it is rust flakes...

The gun probably isn't going, due to Japanese import laws. They're dismounting it to avoid being told to cut it.

[Tim Sielbeck]

1 hour ago, Manic Moran said:

The replica Ha-Go is in Texas already, I saw it a couple weeks ago.

The Chi Ha is being cleaned for movement. It's in an... interesting state. The mechanicals are generally there, but the rest of it is rust flakes...

The gun probably isn't going, due to Japanese import laws. They're dismounting it to avoid being told to cut it.

The Nimitz Museum in Fredericksburg had a rust-bucket of a Japanese tank I got to crawl around (very reluctantly) in the '70s.  Do you know if they still have it?

[futon]

2 hours ago, Manic Moran said:

The replica Ha-Go is in Texas already, I saw it a couple weeks ago.

The Chi Ha is being cleaned for movement. It's in an... interesting state. The mechanicals are generally there, but the rest of it is rust flakes...

The gun probably isn't going, due to Japanese import laws. They're dismounting it to avoid being told to cut it.

Since the restored Ha-Go from the UK came altogther, the gun should be ok. 

Maybe there's a lack of confidence on the gun mount remaining intact during shipping considering the state of the rest of the tank.

Does that mean there's a Chieftain's Hatch on the Chi-Ha coming? (^-^)

Edited November 4, 2024 by futon

[futon]

1 hour ago, Tim Sielbeck said:

The Nimitz Museum in Fredericksburg had a rust-bucket of a Japanese tank I got to crawl around (very reluctantly) in the '70s.  Do you know if they still have it?

There have two Japanese tanks, the Cha-Ha in discission and a Ha-Go, although the origins of when and where they got them, I don't know. They gave them a partial cleanup and painting surely. The Ha-Go looks like its in even worse condition. Although, its nice to have coopetation with the Nimitz Museum for the Chi-Ha to return to Japan. I was able to visit earlier in the year. They had them as props for the reenactment show. The missing return rollers really give a horrendous sag look on the tracks.

 

[Stuart Galbraith]

How do people feel about those Oz Armour videos?

I admire them piecing tanks together out of bits. And then I cringe when they go and put a Caterpillar engine in a Panzer 1. If you cant make it move with the original power unit, then why make it move at all?

[Tim the Tank Nut]

a re-power is better than no power but don't act like you are doing restorations because you aren't.

The most I'd go for is a temporary power plant until the original becomes available.  No cutting anything that can't be fixed later.  In a VERY FEW cases the original powerplant just isn't an option and a re-power at least gets the machine moving again.  Make the repower components invisible when the engine access doors are closed.  No sense in advertising that you aren't that good...

[Stuart Galbraith]

Yes, that is exactly my issue with it. They say 'well this is a restoration'. Its not really, its a rolling chassis. I can appreciate right on the other end of the planet parts are hard to come by, but for me it just...  .

It doesnt help when they do this. A RUNNING Panzer I! That sounds like a D9 Caterpillar...

To be fair, they are going all in to try and source an authentic engine for their Tiger, so credit for that.

[old_goat]

And now something better quality restoration, two Tiger B turrets being rebuilt somewhere in Germany, for Wheatcroft Collection. Both tanks will be in full operational condition at the end of restoration. Even better, they have 3 more Tiger I in progress, 2 of them will be also runners. Great news for tank community, but horrible news for Bovington, where the active days of Tiger 131 are numbered (unless they change their "originality" policy). 

[Stuart Galbraith]

From what ive heard of the Tiger 1's, they are substantially new fabrications with some old bits. I strongly suspect the same is true of these turrets.

Ive some sympathy for Bovington, 131 is, other than the Samur one, the most original Tiger 1 in the world. OTOH, I also want to see it run. Replace all the running bits with new fabrication, and you start to edge towards the world of a vehicle that looks like a Tiger but really isnt. At that point you may as well stick a Caterpillar engine in it as the Australians have done with the Panzer 1 and be done with it.

The ideal solution perhaps is buy a Wheatcroft one and run the ass of it, and keep 131 on a plinth. Somehow I doubt the funds will exist for that.

[bojan]

Moving tank will bring more visitors than static one. This will result in more money available for a museum, including other restorations. As long as it is done reasonably (like, no  serious modifications of tank in order to fit new engine) I don't see why that is such an issue. This is even more true for tanks that were repaired from a broken wrecks, where at least some parts had to be made again, often including pieces of the hull or turret. If you go for "correct parts only" a lot of those would be still heaps of the scrap metal w/o any value to the majority of the people, while restored ones bring idea of the old tanks to the people.

 

[Stuart Galbraith]

One gets into awkward territory where people want to see the rarest items run. I was watching one of those Oz armour videos, and they were showing these guys in Poland who reverse engineer components for German fighting vehicles. Seems like a major industry for them overthere, and they were providing parts for the Australian Tiger project. They scan original components, put it into a cad system, then machine it according to the data they scan. So far so good. Lots of spare parts for rare vehicles, very nice. Wehrmacht Halfords, like it.

The problem comes when they make the components better than they were originally, stronger steel, coating gear teeth to make them last longer. Now if you have a fairly bog standard sherman, no problem. You want to make it reliable, and not break down in the middle of a show. You arent changing the vehicle in any meaningful way, and if you do, so what, plenty more shermans out there. No one is really that worried.

The problem comes when you have the last surviving early production Tiger (or at least, the only one with its internals). Now the tank museum already had to make changes because the original engine was sectioned, and there is an epic story of the Maybach engines they cooked getting one that worked (I saw the flame damage on the exhausts from the one that didnt make it). Again fair enough, they modded it according to German Army instructions on fitting a later HL230 engine. If it had remained in service, their could have sent it back and it would have the mod done by Henschel perhaps. I cant get upset about that.

But when you start improving suspension components, drive train, engine, to get more running time, suddenly you dont have a historical artifact anymore. You have the shell of a historic vehicle filled with modern spec components. If you want it to run, fine. But if you are setting yourself up as a collection of historic equipment, you really need to keep it historic and stop treating stuff like a modern fairground ride.

I dont know what the answer is. Maybe retain ALL the life expired components in a container, and when you finally park the vehicle up, fit them all on the vehicle maybe? Dont know. Lets just say I can see both points of view, but by and large, Id prefer the history to be retained. Or people are going to get a wholly unrealistic view of the properties of the Tiger in 2543, assuming people are still interested in tanks by then.

Edited November 5, 2024 by Stuart Galbraith

[futon]

As to whether or not to restore, I sort of feel the tank's fate matters.

If it was abondoned. It makes sense to restore. But if it was knocked out that included crew fatalities, it's actually a grave. So in that case, static and in its damaged shape is the way to go. Only cleaned up and protected from the elements. It's battle damage has a true story that ended with the life of a crew. That would be lost through full restoration.

[sunday]

17 minutes ago, futon said:

As to whether or not to restore, I sort of feel the tank's fate matters.

If it was abondoned. It makes sense to restore. But if it was knocked out that included crew fatalities, it's actually a grave. So in that case, static and in its damaged shape is the way to go. Only cleaned up and protected from the elements. It's battle damage has a true story that ended with the life of a crew. That would be lost through full restoration.

Agree.

[old_goat]

15 hours ago, Stuart Galbraith said:

From what ive heard of the Tiger 1's, they are substantially new fabrications with some old bits. I strongly suspect the same is true of these turrets.

Nope. All Tigers are mostly original, with only a few new parts. 

15 hours ago, Stuart Galbraith said:

Replace all the running bits with new fabrication, and you start to edge towards the world of a vehicle that looks like a Tiger but really isnt.

That depends. If a certain Tiger gets a newly manufactured, but identical part, then it doesnt really lose much originality. See what Panzer Farm do. That is simply amazing. Technically, an otherwise fully original Tiger, but with 2025 manufactured transmission is still 100% original. But of course not historically. That is exactly what Bovington should do. Preserve original parts, replace them with new ones, keep the tank running forever. But sadly, with the stagnation of Bovington, it is hardly possible. 

13 hours ago, Stuart Galbraith said:

The problem comes when they make the components better than they were originally, stronger steel, coating gear teeth to make them last longer.

Why on earth is this a problem? Ideally, you preserve original parts, not throw it to the junk. History is still there. With new, but identical components, you only lose some historical originality, but retain 100% technical originality. A very small price to pay. And as Bojan said, more moving vehicles = more money for museum = more money for future restorations. This is what Bovington does not understand, and partly cause of the stagnation and aimlessness there. 

 

[Stuart Galbraith]

But this one was internally complete, which few of the others were. In the 1990's when they started restoring it (the original intent was for the 50th anniversary of D Day) they left the turret in the exhibition hall on a turret stand with the loading hatch open. You could look in and see all the controls and fittings. It even had the original paintwork then, complete with German stencilling. This is the only early tiger im aware of that survived in anything like complete condition. All the others in Russia had holes shot in them (including the ones that were the first captured outside Leningrad). They were and remain range wrecks.

The only major component they changed for it to run was the engine, which they had to nick out the Jagdtiger. Im not saying there is no additions, just that everything else is as the Germans 'loaned' it. Its substantially the tank that Gudgeon wrote the intelligence report on.

Besides, its historically significant in itself. Its the only surviving combat veteran of Tunisia that im aware of. Its the first Tiger the Western allies captured. You start swapping out things like roadwheels or new gearbox teeth, it would be losing that originality.

Even the Samur one is historically significant. Its the only late one that im aware survived in good condition. Its a combat veteran twice over, first with the Germans, and then with the French Army. Of course that hasnt run postwar either, so its fully justified in rebuilding it to running condition. But I wouldnt want to see it run to death or its originality disappear either.

Do I want Tigers that run? Of course. I think we would do well to think of future generations that wont be happy with us bequeathing them modernized vehicles, a hulk of a vehicle full of non original parts to keep it running. Its a rabbit hole, and the more you think about it, the fewer good answers there are..

Bovington can be accused of many things, but stagnation and aimlessness is certainly not one of them.

 

[Stuart Galbraith]

10 hours ago, futon said:

As to whether or not to restore, I sort of feel the tank's fate matters.

If it was abondoned. It makes sense to restore. But if it was knocked out that included crew fatalities, it's actually a grave. So in that case, static and in its damaged shape is the way to go. Only cleaned up and protected from the elements. It's battle damage has a true story that ended with the life of a crew. That would be lost through full restoration.

There is actually good evidence that the crew of 131 all died. None of them came forward when it became known in Germany it was being restored. Subsequent  research revealed that the tank was overheating, and when it got damaged by a Churchill shell, the crew all jumped out where, depending on what story you believe, they were all captured or all shot down by MG fire.

If so, It doesnt seem likely they actually died IN the tank, but still, it does bear the marks of a crews last action. Of course, none of this was remotely known prior to the restoration, it was only known in the last 5 or so years when they started comparing war logs.

Does it make a difference? Perhaps not.

[old_goat]

53 minutes ago, Stuart Galbraith said:

Its the only surviving combat veteran of Tunisia that im aware of.

Maybe Im wrong, but I think the Panzer IIIL came from the same area, no?

54 minutes ago, Stuart Galbraith said:

You start swapping out things like roadwheels or new gearbox teeth, it would be losing that originality.

If they dont throw them out, then not really. Also, I think it is the exact opposite. The more you run the tank with its original components the more you lose them due to wear. Thats basically what the guys at Panzer Farm said. Keep the originals, run the tank on new parts. You can then keep it running basically forever. The original parts will remain there to copy later. So yes, you lose a little historical originality, but keep 100% technical originality.

55 minutes ago, Stuart Galbraith said:

Do I want Tigers that run? Of course. I think we would do well to think of future generations that wont be happy with us bequeathing them modernized vehicles, a hulk of a vehicle full of non original parts to keep it running. Its a rabbit hole, and the more you think about it, the fewer good answers there are..

Modernized means putting in lets say a Caterpillar engine, or a hydromech transmission. Putting in a newly manufactured HL230 or a newly manufactured, but identical transmission is not a modernization. 

[Stuart Galbraith]

Panzer III did come from Tunisia, and they did an extensive restoration some 20 years ago and found under the floor, lots of oil mixed with western desert sand. One wag suggested selling it on ebay to fund the restoration. Very laudable getting it running again, but didnt they damage the originality digging all that sand out, not to mention period correct oil? Future generations might be incensed by that, particularly if they could have figured out where in the western desert that sand came from, or draw conclusions about the state of German wartime lubricants.

Perhaps I exaggerate here, or perhaps I dont. Really without looking at things from the perspective of the future, we cant know what they will find valuable. As far as the Tiger, the guys in 1943 that repainted it in Tunisia thought they were making it presentable, which they did. In reality they were just ruining the originality, making it difficult for when the Tank museum went to repaint it. There is a great video on how they researched what the original paint would have been, but of course, utterly unnecessary if they had just given it a damn good wash and left it alone. They were also making it incredibly difficult for generations of modellers, whom thought that German Tiger tan in the desert campaign was just the same as eighth army desert tan.

Im all for making new WW2 German tank engines, but of necessity, they wouldnt be original because they would be new builds. It would sound the same and probably look the same, but it wouldnt actually be the same, because it would be better built, and you could drive it in a way Tiger drivers could not. For future generations, when something is really rare, this is probably something that should be avoided.

And I say that, even though I would dearly like the Tank museums KV1 to run again.

[old_goat]

56 minutes ago, Stuart Galbraith said:

but didnt they damage the originality digging all that sand out, not to mention period correct oil?

Thats utter idiocy. Keeping the sand is OK. In a jar. But not in the tank. Guess what, thats exactly what MasterMilo did when he restoed his Iraqi Type69. Period correct oil is degraded completely and will not do its job. WW2 tanks, no matter the origin, should get the best quality fuel and lubricants possible. 

1 hour ago, Stuart Galbraith said:

It would sound the same and probably look the same, but it wouldnt actually be the same, because it would be better built, and you could drive it in a way Tiger drivers could not.

Then I guess you didnt watch the Panzer Farm videos. The new transmission they build is exactly the same as the original, to the last tiny details. As for material quality, no, it isnt really better. They said that the original parts are already quite high quality stuff. Driving a Tiger with a 2025 built HL230 would be the same as with an 1943 one. The only stuff that is definitely better quality today are the gaskets and seals. But you change those anyway even in an original engine. 

1 hour ago, Stuart Galbraith said:

And I say that, even though I would dearly like the Tank museums KV1 to run again.

Agree. But that exactly proves my point about Bovington's stagnation and aimlessness. Getting a V2 engine is not hard at all compared to a HL230, HL120 or even one of the more exotic Sherman engines. If a certain dutch guy and his friend was able to completely restore a hopeless pile of rust to an almost fully operational tank, then Bovington should be able to restore the KV-1. 

[bojan]

What are "original parts"? Most tanks surviving in large museums came from technical tests where mish-mash of the parts salvaged from multiple tanks was used in order to make tank operational for testing. Nevermind a fact that at the point of capture they were also often overhauled by original owners, replacing at least some of the "original" parts.

Other were often various test platforms, modified to test certain solutions, then modified back to "regular" tank.

[Coldsteel]

On 11/4/2024 at 6:55 PM, Stuart Galbraith said:

How do people feel about those Oz Armour videos?

I admire them piecing tanks together out of bits. And then I cringe when they go and put a Caterpillar engine in a Panzer 1. If you cant make it move with the original power unit, then why make it move at all?

Bit of a mixed bag. If we take the M3 Mediums as an example they go to the trouble of putting modifications on one tank that didn't have them, them go and cut off the mods that another tank to "back date" it, only not go all the way as they're keeping the heavier duty suspension even though they have the other type in their junk yard as they pulled the wrong springs out of those for the first tank. Then had to go back to get the right springs. They also found they had parts there that they spent time to fabricate. Then when the correct power plant falls into their possession rather than re-evaluate and use the real engine, they stick with the modern engine to meet a self imposed deadline for their armour fest.

It seems to me that at times they will make more work for themselves to achieve a lesser result. Some sort of proper inventory system might help.

It's OK if you just want an armour theme park and drive the tanks around. If they want to call it a museum I'd expect more focus on history. But their its property so they can do what they want.

[Stuart Galbraith]

25 minutes ago, Coldsteel said:

Bit of a mixed bag. If we take the M3 Mediums as an example they go to the trouble of putting modifications on one tank that didn't have them, them go and cut off the mods that another tank to "back date" it, only not go all the way as they're keeping the heavier duty suspension even though they have the other type in their junk yard as they pulled the wrong springs out of those for the first tank. Then had to go back to get the right springs. They also found they had parts there that they spent time to fabricate. Then when the correct power plant falls into their possession rather than re-evaluate and use the real engine, they stick with the modern engine to meet a self imposed deadline for their armour fest.

It seems to me that at times they will make more work for themselves to achieve a lesser result. Some sort of proper inventory system might help.

It's OK if you just want an armour theme park and drive the tanks around. If they want to call it a museum I'd expect more focus on history. But their its property so they can do what they want.

I dont like to deprecate what they do, they do save some rare vehicles. But yes, I detected that too. Every time on their videos they say its going to be a restoration, then they drop a caterpillar engine in it.For me I wince ever time they say 'well we will never use that part, so we are not going to restore it.'

Well im not restoring anything so I have no right to complain. But having gone all in having a panther with the original powerplant, it would be nice to see them going the same way with everything else.

[Coldsteel]

Many years ago there was this TV programme, about collectors or something. One of the was a wine guy, he said something interesting that stuck in my head. He was the type to have one of every year. He said something to the effect of you can pretty much always get the good vintages, you just have to throw money at it, it is the lesser years that can be much harder to come by.

The individual history of a 30 ton vehicle that never reached the battle field but instead was used to pull down trees to clear land to grow crops, is never going to be as popular or attention getting as come see Monty's command tank, but it is what actually happened. Strangely enough, or maybe not, seeing an artifact showing all that expended effort to make something to obliterate your fellow man but not actually having used it, gives me a little hope. YMMV

[Stuart Galbraith]

This was a good edition of Mr Hewes, and abbreviated video all about the restoration of one Chieftain Tank.

 

[Coldsteel]

 

Hmmm ... It was drivable when it was at the Melbourne Tank Museum, I guess sitting outside for ten years at the MVTF didn't do it any good, and then being packed full of sandblasting grit by some boat builder. Yeah I'm not surprised things are stuck and/or crunchy. I don't think I'd be trying to turn the engines over under those conditions as if any of that abrasive has snuck into places it should not have... And are there 6V jump starter kits like that?

We will see how it goes, but I have a small feeling of dread.