Dutch East Indies

[On the way]

19 hours ago, Markus Becker said:

The Japanese intentions became clear when they oppupied the south of Indo China. That was months before December and triggered the last minute effort to reinforce the Phillipines.

 

WRT Malaya,

the Japanese had freedom of maritime movement but so did the British Empire. A convoy with an entire infantry division made it into Singapore a few days before it fell. On Java the situation didn't get hopeless until after the Fall of Singapore.

And the British Imperial ground forces in Malaya at the start of the war were fully trained and equipped and fairly nomerous. Two Indian divisions in the north, 2/3s of and Australian division in the mid-east, two Malayan brigades in Singapore itself, a brigade in reserve, plus fortress and volunteer untis.

Had Operation Matador been cancelled in time, the untis in the north would have met the attack from their prepared defensive positions and the battle for the north west would have probably been more like the one for Kota Bharu. The victory was costly for the Japanese and the British forces could withdraw in good order afterwards.

Yeah, I agree. Even Yamashita said his forces were almost spend by the time they landed in Singapore. They took casualties in Malaya and their resupply situation was not the best. When he went to meet Percival at the Ford factory, he thought Percival was going to ask for his surrender instead of offering to surrender. If Percival had refused to surrender, Yamashita admitted he couldn't win a house to house and street to street fight in Singapore. 

[Markus Becker]

17 minutes ago, On the way said:

Yeah, I agree. Even Yamashita said his forces were almost spend by the time they landed in Singapore. They took casualties in Malaya and their resupply situation was not the best. When he went to meet Percival at the Ford factory, he thought Percival was going to ask for his surrender instead of offering to surrender. If Percival had refused to surrender, Yamashita admitted he couldn't win a house to house and street to street fight in Singapore. 

And that was after capturing lots of supplies when the British so hastily abandoned the northwest, that the Japanese even took airfields with the avgas and ordnance still there. 

IMO the Japanese didn't so much win the campaign, the British lost it for them. 

[RETAC21]

47 minutes ago, On the way said:

Well, your granduncle wasn't rounded up by the Japs, taken to their headquarters, and then never seen again. Likely, they took him out along with thousands of other Chinese males in Singapore and executed him on the beach. Mine was. His only crime was he was a young chinese male caught up in the Sook Ching massacre. And that's assuming they didn't torture him first. He left behind 2 young sons. I am being delicate and nice by calling them Japs. There is a lot worse thing I can call them. 

Am no moderator and that's their call, but this discussion was already held in the early 2000s and Japs (as well as Nips, chinks, gooks, niggers, dagos, etc.) was deemed an unacceptable racial slur and against the ROE.

Surely, you can call them Japanese murderers, bastards or whatever adjective and have a rational discussion without the racial overtones.

As for atrocities, I have plenty on my family, just not by the Japanese, so victimhood is hardly a defence.

[glenn239]

3 hours ago, Markus Becker said:

IMO the Japanese didn't so much win the campaign, the British lost it for them. 

The issue was not in doubt due to Japanese naval and air superiority.  Had the British managed to stalemate the Japanese 25th in or north of Singapore, then the Japanese could and would have invaded Sumatra.  Once Medan and Banda Aceh were in Japanese hands, the British position in Malaya collapses.

[Markus Becker]

2 hours ago, glenn239 said:

The issue was not in doubt due to Japanese naval and air superiority.  Had the British managed to stalemate the Japanese 25th in or north of Singapore, then the Japanese could and would have invaded Sumatra.  Once Medan and Banda Aceh were in Japanese hands, the British position in Malaya collapses.

Yes, southern Sumatra was an Achilles heel of Singapore but one that could and probably would have been dealt with if the ground war on the peninsula had gone much better for the British. They might have redirected some of the reinforcements there to guard and train. 

And a better going ground war would have had implications for Japanese air power. Like no use of British avgas and bombs.

 

PS: Overall the Japanese were more powerful but they weren't the local 500 lb gorilla. Far from it, just less weak and better coordinated than the defece. ~200 operational (army) fighters, most of them obsolescent only works when the other side has a mere 50. Same for ground forces. Looks like they landed just an infantry regiment on Sumatra. Again, not much but much more than the defece had. Against two brigades though???

Edited August 1, 2024 by Markus Becker

[glenn239]

1 hour ago, Markus Becker said:

Yes, southern Sumatra was an Achilles heel of Singapore but one that could and probably would have been dealt with if the ground war on the peninsula had gone much better for the British. They might have redirected some of the reinforcements there to guard and train. 

 

I think the Japanese would pour more divisions into Malaya to reinforce the 25th Army in order to regain momentum, similar to what they did on Luzon.  Kido Butai would be used to destroy British airpower at Singapore, allowing for landings at Batam and other points around the Singapore Straights to use air and naval power to choke off British sea communications.  British reinforcements diverted to Sumatra surely would not be sufficient for the task.  The whole thing just looks impossible for the British to succeed to me, but maybe I'm wrong.  

[Markus Becker]

27 minutes ago, glenn239 said:

 

I think the Japanese would pour more divisions into Malaya to reinforce the 25th Army in order to regain momentum, similar to what they did on Luzon.  Kido Butai would be used to destroy British airpower at Singapore, allowing for landings at Batam and other points around the Singapore Straights to use air and naval power to choke off British sea communications.  British reinforcements diverted to Sumatra surely would not be sufficient for the task.  The whole thing just looks impossible for the British to succeed to me, but maybe I'm wrong.  

They did the opposite. Advanced with substantially less than the ground forces at hand because of logistical constraints. And that was with the windfall of captured supplies. 

WRT reinforcements to Sumatra, would one or two additional Brigades plus artillery be insufficient to defeat an infantry regiment? 

[futon]

22 hours ago, On the way said:

Well, your granduncle wasn't rounded up by the Japs, taken to their headquarters, and then never seen again. Likely, they took him out along with thousands of other Chinese males in Singapore and executed him on the beach. Mine was. His only crime was he was a young chinese male caught up in the Sook Ching massacre. And that's assuming they didn't torture him first. He left behind 2 young sons. I am being delicate and nice by calling them Japs. There is a lot worse thing I can call them. 

I am one not so for rules. Trolling is one thing. But if a slur stems from hard, deep, genuine feelings, that I am one to not urge a rule against it. The reason for Jap in your case is different than the reason for nigger, for example. The latter blanten unfounded deep racism. The former stemming from Sook Ching.

However.. as a history abd military based forums, I feel I would like to raise some points...

First.. The British in Singapore allowed or even encouraged activities by local chinese that were in support efforts for the Nationalists Chinese and the Chinese communists. Naturally, none for Wang Regime Chinese. 

Then there has been cases of non-uniformed Chinese taking combat against Japanese soldiers in the war on the mainland. Such guerrilla was possible, making a preventive stamp out a choice. The British did start making resistance organizations in Malaya in Dec 41' made up of ethnic Chinese. So ethnicity is getting tied into it. I'd still call it a war crime. But with more context, why it happens id better understand. So does one want to know the whole context or to be known, or keep pristine biased narrative is a matter.

So comes the question why the Japanese went to war to begin with. A whole topic which I feel is 50/50 Japan and US and company cause, and what Japan's defeat really meant, in raw unbiased narrative, not the Tokyo Tribunal glory narrative, to the region at large.

Finally, what is in the interest of one group is different than other groups. Dutch Indies locals, saw it as an opportunity to finally end centuries long of colonization, and so the would-become indonesians cooporated with the Japanese. 

So those points don't undo what was done to your line. So on a personal level, I don't mind what words you may have.. in that past context, and I'm sorry to read it. But I cannot ignore the history, its interpretation, as well as the history of interpretations of history, as I have learned about all of it. So I post.

 

 

[Stuart Galbraith]

Just as a matter of interest (and I too am moved by what happened to your granduncle on the way), what was the ratio of troops from Korea in the Imperial japanese army? I remember it being mentioned in Hansard, in relation to British POW's in the Korean war, that Korean Guards on the Burma railway were regarded as being much more brutal than the Japanese proper, presumably because coming from a colonized territory, they had to be more brutal than the Japanese to escape a beating themselves. Im tempted to think that when they had the really shitty job to do, like murdering a lot of defenceless civilians, they may have been tempted to give it to someone else to do, in much the same way the Nazi's love to employ Jews to do the messy jobs in the concentration camps.

It doesnt defend the Japanese leadership or the Army of course. But It may go some way to explain the nature of the brutality. As we British found, colonial troops always tended to be a bit more enthusiastic than our native troops when it comes to cleaning the clocks of other nationalities.

Im sorry if that comes across as brutally insensitive. Just trying to understand it a bit better is all.

[On the way]

On 8/2/2024 at 1:50 AM, futon said:

I am one not so for rules. Trolling is one thing. But if a slur stems from hard, deep, genuine feelings, that I am one to not urge a rule against it. The reason for Jap in your case is different than the reason for nigger, for example. The latter blanten unfounded deep racism. The former stemming from Sook Ching.

However.. as a history abd military based forums, I feel I would like to raise some points...

First.. The British in Singapore allowed or even encouraged activities by local chinese that were in support efforts for the Nationalists Chinese and the Chinese communists. Naturally, none for Wang Regime Chinese. 

Then there has been cases of non-uniformed Chinese taking combat against Japanese soldiers in the war on the mainland. Such guerrilla was possible, making a preventive stamp out a choice. The British did start making resistance organizations in Malaya in Dec 41' made up of ethnic Chinese. So ethnicity is getting tied into it. I'd still call it a war crime. But with more context, why it happens id better understand. So does one want to know the whole context or to be known, or keep pristine biased narrative is a matter.

So comes the question why the Japanese went to war to begin with. A whole topic which I feel is 50/50 Japan and US and company cause, and what Japan's defeat really meant, in raw unbiased narrative, not the Tokyo Tribunal glory narrative, to the region at large.

Finally, what is in the interest of one group is different than other groups. Dutch Indies locals, saw it as an opportunity to finally end centuries long of colonization, and so the would-become indonesians cooporated with the Japanese. 

So those points don't undo what was done to your line. So on a personal level, I don't mind what words you may have.. in that past context, and I'm sorry to read it. But I cannot ignore the history, its interpretation, as well as the history of interpretations of history, as I have learned about all of it. So I post.

 

 

I see, so what u are saying is that because the British allowed local Chinese in Singapore to support Nationalist Chinese (as did a lot of of other countries, including the United States), and therefore, this was justification for the Japanese to round up unarmed, non-combatant Chinese male civilians and shoot them? Are you even listening to yourself?

And yes, there was a guerilla movement brewing in the jungles of Malaya. So, u are saying this was another justification for the japanese to round up chinese civilians in Singapore and shoot them? I got news for you. Once an enemy occupies a country, EVERYONE is a potential guerilla/partisan or whatever you want to call it. U don't go around arresting them for no reason and shooting them. The Japanese were systematic about this in Singapore. 

The problem I have with the whole fucking country is that they are not sorry for it. I can see it in your posts. There is no justification and no matter what u say, it's barbaric, what the Japanese did to in the territories they occupied. Germany at least at the decency to apologize and in some limited cases make reparations. And confronted what they did head on for their younger generations to see and to learn. Japan has done no such thing. In fact, it's been mostly denial. 

I suppose next, you will be saying that the Japanese army took it easy on Singapore by performing the Sook Ching massacre on us, instead of the Rape of Nanking. 

Let me tell you what happened to my family. The chinese community all around the world were already aware of Japanese atrocities against Chinese, during their war and occupation in China. When they occupied Singapore, they went on a neighbourhood by neighbourhood search of chinese males. 2 of my uncles (in their late teens) and my granduncle (in his twenties) were caught up in such a sweep, and arrested and brought to the Japanese. HQ. In those days, people arrested by the Japanese were never seen again. Went my grandfather came home, the women in the household were crying, and he ask them why. He then grabbed his passport (which was a Portuguese passport) and managed to convince the Japanese that my 2 uncles (his sons) were also Portuguese citizens. Nothing could be done for my granduncle as he was born in Singapore. The last time anyone saw him was at the Japanese HQ. He left behind 2 young boys. They were still finding mass graves in Singapore into the 60s where the Japanese shot the prisoners. Others were taken out to the beach at Tanah Merah Besar and machine guned or taken out in boats with their hands tied, and thrown overboard. I can't imagine how terrifying it was for the victims. 

I will call them whatever I feel like calling them depending on my mood. 

 

 

[futon]

35 minutes ago, On the way said:

I see, so what u are saying is that because the British allowed local Chinese in Singapore to support Nationalist Chinese (as did a lot of of other countries, including the United States), and therefore, this was justification for the Japanese to round up unarmed, non-combatant Chinese male civilians and shoot them? Are you even listening to yourself?

And yes, there was a guerilla movement brewing in the jungles of Malaya. So, u are saying this was another justification for the japanese to round up chinese civilians in Singapore and shoot them? I got news for you. Once an enemy occupies a country, EVERYONE is a potential guerilla/partisan or whatever you want to call it. U don't go around arresting them for no reason and shooting them. The Japanese were systematic about this in Singapore. 

The problem I have with the whole fucking country is that they are not sorry for it. I can see it in your posts. There is no justification and no matter what u say, it's barbaric, what the Japanese did to in the territories they occupied. Germany at least at the decency to apologize and in some limited cases make reparations. And confronted what they did head on for their younger generations to see and to learn. Japan has done no such thing. In fact, it's been mostly denial. 

I suppose next, you will be saying that the Japanese army took it easy on Singapore by performing the Sook Ching massacre on us, instead of the Rape of Nanking. 

Let me tell you what happened to my family. The chinese community all around the world were already aware of Japanese atrocities against Chinese, during their war and occupation in China. When they occupied Singapore, they went on a neighbourhood by neighbourhood search of chinese males. 2 of my uncles (in their late teens) and my granduncle (in his twenties) were caught up in such a sweep, and arrested and brought to the Japanese. HQ. In those days, people arrested by the Japanese were never seen again. Went my grandfather came home, the women in the household were crying, and he ask them why. He then grabbed his passport (which was a Portuguese passport) and managed to convince the Japanese that my 2 uncles (his sons) were also Portuguese citizens. Nothing could be done for my granduncle as he was born in Singapore. The last time anyone saw him was at the Japanese HQ. He left behind 2 young boys. They were still finding mass graves in Singapore into the 60s where the Japanese shot the prisoners. Others were taken out to the beach at Tanah Merah Besar and machine guned or taken out in boats with their hands tied, and thrown overboard. I can't imagine how terrifying it was for the victims. 

I will call them whatever I feel like calling them depending on my mood. 

 

 

Well, in the post that you are responding to, I did up front say I'd still call it a war crime. For how you described it, I don't think otherwise. And I think Japanese apologies were well in place. And for some Japanese to be charged responsible for war crimes, I accept that much and see it suitable. I do not think the US was worthy enough to take that high ground in being justified to carry it out though. But if the US was defeated and conceded the western Pacific to Japanese domination as a result, then that charge on those Japanese that carried out atrocities wouldn't have happened. So I'm not so strongly in favor of a Japanese victory upon the start of the war. Why not strongly agsinst Japan? You don't care to open an ear I think. I think that because your response ignored where I said I'd still call it a war crime. And your response was lazy in trying to see grey in my post. Not black/white good guy bad guy.  Some Japanese generals were not the sort to carry out atrocities, like Iwane Matsui or Masaharu Homma. But some were. So the Japanese were not good enough for strong favor to win. Neither was the US. Why not? As if you care to read. Any rate, the atrocities carried out by Japan is something for Japan today to learn from I think. Easily said. But when the stakes run high... it gets testy. Look at Israel and Ukraine teetering on deep racists levels of hate and killing tendencies towards their advetsaries. I think Japan today has that escalatory emotional run away spinoff fairly well understood. Despite the tensions today, Japanese desposition is very calm, far calmer than the PRC in its rhetoric. 

Pardon the single long paragraph. But everything is linked. If I break it into paragraphs, I feel the connections might get over looked and the lazy eyes will just read the first sentence of each paragraph and assume the rest the stigma implanted by glory narratives MSM. 

[glenn239]

On 8/1/2024 at 12:43 PM, Markus Becker said:

They did the opposite. Advanced with substantially less than the ground forces at hand because of logistical constraints. And that was with the windfall of captured supplies. 

Agreed, but now we're postulating an alternative history situation where the rapid advance to capture Singapore was defeated and thrown back, and now the Japanese are choosing between failing to capture Malaya (and their whole Southern Operation coming off the rails), or doubling down with the naval, shipping, army, and air resources to finish the job.  

Borneo and Celebes will have fallen and the Americans are bottled up in Bataan.  The Java-Sumatra operation would require the historical 850,000 tons of shipping and the historical 2nd and 48th Divisions are not tied down in Malaya.  5th, 18th and Guards will have to fall back from Singapore, but not too far back.  Presumably 56th and maybe something like the 21st Divisions will be sent as reinforcements.  Japanese land based airpower should be able to set in a place like Kuatan in order to dominate British SLOC in the Straights of Malacca, and once Java has fallen Kido Butai and heavy IJN elements can go to town on the British navy at Ceylon and the Bay of Benegal, even while the Andamans and Sumatra are being captured.

I don't see where the ultimate outcome is in doubt?