Sweden's success with fighter aircraft

[futon]

They probably have the highest population to fighter-design-capability ratio. How were they able to do so well? 

[urbanoid]

1. By being well off AND taking their armed neutrality seriously, which included not just spending money, but also achieving a high degree of tech/industrial independence.
2. By being able to source technologies they needed in the West - their jets until Draken (included) used British engine designs, later there were (and still are) American ones.

[sunday]

Not only fighters. Warships also, especially submarines. Tanks and artillery, also. Do not forget electronics - Ericsson.

In all those fields they pursued unique approaches, not unlike the French.

[Josh]

Finland and Sweden have very unique military capabilities due to their proximity to Russia and their previous non NATO status. As noted above, Sweden invested heavily in its aircraft and ship production capabilities in order to have an independent, out of proportion sized arms industry in those sectors. Sweden has a ridiculously extensive coastline and number of islands. Finland on the other hand shares a border with Russia, so it has a huge (army and reserves) for a country with a lower population than New York City. Taken together, they are a very big get for NATO.

[Dawes]

Draken and Viggen are two of the most visually striking aircraft ever.

[alejandro_]

On top of the reasons given above I would say that their industry has a certain level of excellence, which takes years to build. In my field Swedish research institutes have a good solid reputation.

[Olof Larsson]

As noted Swedish aircrafts tend to be a swedish hull, with a mainly USA, UK, french and german interior, with the Viggen being somewhat of a exception. And it's not only the eingine, but also the guns, missiles, ejection eats, landing gear, hydraulic components, fuel components and so on. Again with the Viggen as somewhat of a exception. We where also well aware that we could not afford aircrafts that where very expensive or aircrafts to fail, so we couldn't do high risk stuff, like designing a aircraft around a engine that was not allready proven.

[Stuart Galbraith]

[lucklucky]

But they could not escape the scale issues.

Bofors and BV (CV90, Bv snow tracked vehicles) are now British BAE. There is nothing after Gripen - they were observers of UK-Italy next fighter but did not committed and  Japan took their place. The future do not look rosy. They have the Saab-Boeing T7 training to keep them afloat in military jet market.

Edited March 14, 2024 by lucklucky

[Stuart Galbraith]

It would make sense to me to work on something small, like a loyal wingman. Particularly  if you could give it a decent Stol capability.

[Dawes]

Wonder if SAAB has done any studies of future tactical aircraft?

[Sardaukar]

It is pretty sad how badly SWE did dismantle it's military. They were very strong in 80s. 

This is also quite amusing (not to those involved though...) Wikipedia:

In the Cold War era, more than 600 Swedish fighter pilots were killed in crashes during peacetime exercises and training in the 1945–1991 period.[11] In the 1950s–60s era the flight training curriculum was deficient and the training regimes were too risky and some aircraft types had design flaws. In the 1950s, about 21 pilots were killed annually.[12]

In the 1960s the average number of killed were 13 per year, which meant Sweden had sixfold mortality rate per 100,000 flight hours compared to the United States. In the 1960s flight safety started to become a consideration, not due to the death toll but because the aircraft were getting increasingly expensive.

[futon]

Yikes!

[Sardaukar]

Apart of Cold War other secret agreements (like between USA & SWE and between SWE & Finland), Sweden kept certain amount of Draken planes in store to replace Finnish Air Force losses (which operated then Drakens and MiG-21s...latter would hardly be replaced by seen adversary..). Plus then SwAF was transitioning more to Viggens, so they had planes to spare. 

Obviously those official and unofficial agreements have been sealed and secret at least to late 2030s to 2050s here in Finland, probably same in Sweden. 

[glappkaeft]

17 hours ago, Sardaukar said:

In the 1960s the average number of killed were 13 per year, which meant Sweden had sixfold mortality rate per 100,000 flight hours compared to the United States. In the 1960s flight safety started to become a consideration, not due to the death toll but because the aircraft were getting increasingly expensive.

Some pictures from the SwAF memorial to those that died in service. About 1000 names from 1915 to today. Sobering to say the least.
https://www.krigsminnen.se/flygvapnets-minneshall-i-stockholm/

The numbers compared to the USAF are a little misleading (although there where issues). The Swedish air force was almost 100% operating tactical jets and practicing the same way they where planning to fight. Short flights at low level and high speed in almost any weather. No/few long safe bomber, transport, tanker, maritime recon or even long fighter escort missions to dilute all the crashes from the fast guys.

Here is an example of old Super-8 of A-32 Lansen practicing naval strike with bomb, rocket and cannons (the ASMs where super duper secret for a long time so that was not shown).

 

Edited March 16, 2024 by glappkaeft

[glappkaeft]

On 3/14/2024 at 9:20 PM, Dawes said:

Wonder if SAAB has done any studies of future tactical aircraft?

Yes, but the details at the moment are a bit vague after the UK (which was the previous partner) joined the GCAP project with Japan and Italy. SAAB will probably (maybe?) join that as well.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flygsystem_2020

[Olof Larsson]

On 3/14/2024 at 9:20 PM, Dawes said:

Wonder if SAAB has done any studies of future tactical aircraft?

Yes they are currently looking at 6th generation manned fighters, and supersonic and stealthy "loyal wingmen". The manned fighter would obviously require a source for engines and so on, as well a partner, or a Viggen sized support from the state. But with current 6th generation projects being large and expensive twin engined aircrafts, and with the F-35 being overweight and aerodynamically challenged (both because of the compromizes for the F-35B), there should be a market slot for a F-35 sized 6th gen or 5++th gen fighter. That said, there is now more competition from South Korea, Turkey and India, even if they are rather aiming for 5th gen or 4++th gen.

[Olof Larsson]

17 hours ago, glappkaeft said:

Yes, but the details at the moment are a bit vague after the UK (which was the previous partner) joined the GCAP project with Japan and Italy. SAAB will probably (maybe?) join that as well.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flygsystem_2020

Perhaps SAAB will do a single engined "little brother" to the GCAP, with a smaller version of the same radar and so on, sharing many components, most of the software and so on.

[glappkaeft]

I think this 17 minute interview with a SwAF pilot who started flying Lansen in 1967 (later attack-Viggen) and worked 50 year in the airforce is pretty good. These where the guys tasked to stop a Soviet invasion fleet at any price. It is in Swedish but the Closed Captions are OK (but not perfect) and the video has both some nice video from period exercises and discussions of tactics, equipment, attitudes and accidents.

I like the Swedish title better. It translates to "To counterattack - Fast and low with Lansen and Viggen". The channel also has a good interview with a fighter-Viggen pilot.

 

Edited April 17, 2024 by glappkaeft

[sunday]

4 hours ago, glappkaeft said:

I think this 17 minute interview with a SwAF pilot who started flying Lansen in 1967 (later attack-Viggen) and worked 50 year in the airforce is pretty good. These where the guys tasked to stop a Soviet invasion fleet at any price. It is in Swedish but the Closed Captions are OK (but not perfect) and the video has both some nice video from period exercises and discussions of tactics, equipment, attitudes and accidents.

I like the Swedish title better. It translates to "To counterattack - Fast and low with Lansen and Viggen". The channel also has a good interview with a fighter-Viggen pilot.

 

Excellent video, not sure if one of the best on Youtube, but closer.

One should watch it to realize the price of armed neutrality, on top of local development and building of planes. The Swedish Air Force lost a lot of pilots in training accidents during peacetime. Reminds me of what could have been the fate of Japanese Naval Aviators before WWII.

Edited April 17, 2024 by sunday

[Stuart Galbraith]

13 hours ago, glappkaeft said:

I think this 17 minute interview with a SwAF pilot who started flying Lansen in 1967 (later attack-Viggen) and worked 50 year in the airforce is pretty good. These where the guys tasked to stop a Soviet invasion fleet at any price. It is in Swedish but the Closed Captions are OK (but not perfect) and the video has both some nice video from period exercises and discussions of tactics, equipment, attitudes and accidents.

I like the Swedish title better. It translates to "To counterattack - Fast and low with Lansen and Viggen". The channel also has a good interview with a fighter-Viggen pilot.

 

Wow, nice find!

[futon]

On 4/18/2024 at 8:09 AM, sunday said:

Excellent video, not sure if one of the best on Youtube, but closer.

One should watch it to realize the price of armed neutrality, on top of local development and building of planes. The Swedish Air Force lost a lot of pilots in training accidents during peacetime. Reminds me of what could have been the fate of Japanese Naval Aviators before WWII.

A recent accident: https://english.kyodonews.net/news/2024/04/9b47bad77694-update3-2-japan-sdf-choppers-apparently-crash-in-pacific-7-missing.html

[bd1]

On 3/16/2024 at 2:11 AM, glappkaeft said:

Some pictures from the SwAF memorial to those that died in service. About 1000 names from 1915 to today. Sobering to say the least.
https://www.krigsminnen.se/flygvapnets-minneshall-i-stockholm/

The numbers compared to the USAF are a little misleading (although there where issues). The Swedish air force was almost 100% operating tactical jets and practicing the same way they where planning to fight. Short flights at low level and high speed in almost any weather. No/few long safe bomber, transport, tanker, maritime recon or even long fighter escort missions to dilute all the crashes from the fast guys.
 

in 1983 or 1984 my dad a cruise on soviet research ship  in Baltic Sea, it was after the KAL shootdown and the east-west relations were at rock bottom. 

in Denmark when that ship was in anchor, danes did a anti-terrorist drills through the night , shooting blanks, in Hamburg they were not allowed to leave ship and in swedish waters a Viggen did some very , very daring maneuvers (or so they seemed from the ship, dad took a photo that showed the plane seemingly  really ´buzzing the tower´  Top Gun style. ´he probably was trying to blast the sov. flag off the pole´ dad said   😁

[glappkaeft]

On 4/18/2024 at 1:09 AM, sunday said:

Excellent video, not sure if one of the best on Youtube, but closer.

One should watch it to realize the price of armed neutrality, on top of local development and building of planes. The Swedish Air Force lost a lot of pilots in training accidents during peacetime. Reminds me of what could have been the fate of Japanese Naval Aviators before WWII.

Yeah, the channel has more good content even though they post seldomly. Pity so much good information of Swedish cold war preparations is Swedish language only, no CC nor translation (just see the series "Om kriget kom" if you know Swedish ("If war came")).

Everyone played hard at the time including the Soviets shooting down Swedish planes in international waters (the DC3 signals intelligence plane/Catalina rescue plane affair, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catalina_affair) and sometimes the victim was on the Soviet side, one such incident was the SU-15 crash trying to follow a recon-Viggen aircraft performing maneuvers intended to shake it off during a "routine" surveillance missions to monitor Soviet exercises and the SU-15 hit the drink. 

See: https://theaviationgeekclub.com/the-story-of-the-su-15-that-crashed-after-it-tried-to-follow-a-sh-37-viggen-reconnaissance-aircraft-performing-aerobatic-manoeuvres-at-low-altitude-to-shake-off-the-flagon/

The SwAF pilots where seriously committed, motivated and pushed hard. It is common to hear stories of them landing with telephone wire trailing or parts of treetops stuck in the wings. As mentioned before, also too many stories of them not returning. This is an interview with an RAF Jaguar pilot (pdf) that did an exchange with the SwAF heavy attack jets in Sweden back in the day (sure we where neutral, trust me gov). He was seriously impressed by both pilots and airframes.

Quote

This was not just an individual — I flew with three of them, and all three were like that. Each of them was able to fly the Jaguar faster and lower from the back seat than I could from the front seat.

The heavy attack was the first (and only, nothing else was organized in such a large 100+ aircraft unit) flight squadron called E1, and was nicknamed "the supreme commanders club" ("ÖBs klubba" in Swedish). It consisted of every A-32 Lansen and later every AJ-37 Viggen, and the E1 commander, Björn Bjuggren, wrote in 1963:

Quote

We must therefore commit E1 without remorse, we have to hit hard and we have to hit fast so that we can repeat the blows. We must use the greatest possible force from the start. Not economize to have aircraft and missiles [Rmrk: this is a reference to the ASM RB-04 in SwAF service from 1959 which was secret for decades] for later. Later could be to late. 

and in the same document

Quote

The units must therefore be prepared to take heavy losses. This requires that the crews have good spirit and high combat morale. For this reason the crews of our aircraft must have confidence in the commander or leader that will send them out to die.

Around the time of the introduction of Lansen all other attack missions (especially close support) where de-emphasized. The primary mission for the E1 "club" would be to hit the "cookie" (Swedish: "kakan", and many non-Swedish sources would say "the cake" which is "tårtan", without etymological evidence I think that the cookie is the area where the "chocolate s/chips" fall), i.e. the invasion fleet ships are the chocolate chips in the (target) cookie.

The recon jets mission would try to find sign of activity in the harbors and then locate the enemy fleet. The primary mission of the fighter wings would be to try to protect E1. E1 would then spend the around 300 RB-04 ASMs (taking the losses required doing so at some date and then later firing RB-15), then continue the attack with unguided rocket pods, bombs and cannon fire if necessary. The RB-04 ASM would often have been programmed to ignore the first target so it would pass by the escorts and hit the landing ships, supply and Ro-Ro ships.

In the case the invasion fleet was no longer a threat then any remaining attack aircraft (now including the SK-60 trainers/light attack aircraft) would interdict any enemy ground forces that might have landed in the south in the face of the air force/navy/coastal artillery opposition or was advancing on the northern land route (hopefully still stuck in northern Finland or on the Kalix or Luleå fortress lines). The air defense sectors in the north had been preplanned and coordinated with NATO forces, the northernmost tip of Sweden was to be defended by NATO, below that was SwAF responsibility including attacks responding on attacks towards Norway (very neutral of us).

At one point E1 based their planning on taking 23% losses of aircraft per day (3 mission a day at 6% a piece and another 5% per day lost on the ground) in the initial and, realistically (no matter if we'd win or lose in that case), only phase. One of the better Swedish history podcasts calls this and similar attitudes in the face of expected heavy losses, especially in the Navy, the Swedish Kamikaze war.

Swedish law still does not allow for the country to surrender. The instruction still is: "If Sweden is attacked by another country, we will never give up. All information to the effect that resistance is to cease is false". This was repeated anew a few year ago when the old pamphlet (in English https://rib.msb.se/filer/pdf/30307.pdf) was dusted off and updated (the old one did not mention e.g. cyberattacks) and sent out to all Swedish households. If that would hold as well in practice now as I expect it would have done back then I don't know but many of us are still a stubborn bunch.

This info was also in first few pages of the phone book back when that was a thing and the principles where of course taught in more depth during military service which for several decades included 90+% of all men. In that era having been rejected by the military for conscription was not a good carrier move, if the army thinks you are too useless for static duties guarding supply bunkers in "Leech Swamp" (actual place in Uppland, Sweden) or sweeping airplane hangars with a broom (many places back in the day) why would any employer have any confidence in your abilities at all?

Civil defense (in Sweden organized under the name Total defense) was well prepared, when I was a kid we had yearly air-raid-evacuate-to-the-school-bomb-shelter drills until around 1990/91-ish when I was about twelve, bomb shelters where everywhere. Not sure this was the same in every town, although somewhat out of way a bit up north the town I grew up in was a possible invasion target and thus might had more of them.

Legitimate airstrike targets in the area (i.e. not the large hospital but since that kind of attack was excepted so it had underground facilities for wartime operations) included a couple of deep harbors, several large hydro dams and an oil depot. Thus we now know now it used to have four fixed costal batteries (one 6 inch battery, the rest 75 mm batteries), a couple of permanent mine and sonar barriers, a light ASM battery and who knows what would be added in wartime or is still secret, more mobile ASM launchers, mobile coastal guns, SAM/AA, additional mines, etc. Two airbases where nearby, with the expected satellite airfields (one now a nice drag racing track) and road bases all over the place.

If you spent time on a boat in the archipelago, hiking/scouting/picking berries or mushrooms/doing forestry in the deep forests or hiking/skiing in the mountains you would often see the air force practice air to air combat or low level flight. I have seen a few breathtaking examples of airmanship and a couple of examples of what must have been illegal low level flights (once a VERY low flyover by a SK-60 trainer/light attack aircraft straight over our house in an suburban area).

Edited April 23, 2024 by glappkaeft

[sunday]

Thanks for that post, @glappkaeft. Seems it gives a good overview of the Swedish mentality during the Cold War.

Also, it looks like the heavy strike pilots of E1 did keep the spirit of the Caroleans. Reminds me of the spirit of our Foreign Legion.