Mr Bates vs the Post Office

[rmgill]

This is so bad it deserves it's own thread. 
 

 

 

[rmgill]

 

[Stuart Galbraith]

Just Conservative crony capitalism at work. Why are you even surprised? The banks are run like this too.

[rmgill]

The people at fault need to compensate the victims. This includes the justice system that failed so broadly. 

[Stuart Galbraith]

Once again, this is not a bug, this is a feature. This is the way the country works.

Look at Grenfell tower. Look at the Iraq War. Look at the unhealthy relationship between Government and Russian oligarchs. Or the increasingly unmitigated disaster that is Brexit. Or the 30 years it took for nobody in the police to face blame over Hillsborough. Nobody in this country whom is in power, in any political position, ever faces responsiblity other than at a ballot box. The same is true of the corporate world (Piper Alpha, Ladbroke Grove etc).

This is what the 1980's did for us. You think this is an isolated example? Believe it or not, it really isnt. There isnt a corner of the country that isnt run like this.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

/

Edited February 20, 2024 by Stuart Galbraith

[DB]

6 hours ago, Stuart Galbraith said:

Just Conservative crony capitalism at work. Why are you even surprised? The banks are run like this too.

Funny things, memories. Who knew they were subject to filtering by political persuasion?

The Horizon software was installed in 1999. The prosecutions ran from then until 2009.

Labour was in power from 1997 to 2010 (Blair and Brown, in case you've forgotten).

Could you, for once, actually think for a moment and cross-check this stuff before you open your yap, or rather, let those 100wpm fingers spout yet more nonsense?

[rmgill]

 

[Stuart Galbraith]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-68146054.amp

David Cameron's government knew the Post Office had ditched a secret investigation that might have helped wrongly accused postmasters prove their innocence, the BBC can reveal.

The 2016 investigation trawled 17 years of records to find out how often, and why, cash accounts on the Horizon IT system had been tampered with remotely.

Ministers were told an investigation was happening.

But after postmasters began legal action, it was suddenly stopped.

The secret investigation adds to evidence that the Post Office knew Horizon's creator, Fujitsu, could remotely fiddle with sub-postmaster's cash accounts - even as it argued in court, two years later, that it was impossible.

The revelations have prompted an accusation that the Post Office may have broken the law - and the government did nothing to prevent it. Paul Marshall, a barrister who represented some sub-postmasters, said: "On the face of it, it discloses a conspiracy by the Post Office to pervert the course of justice."

Senapathy Narenthiran, known as Naren, a convicted sub-postmaster from Ramsgate in Kent who joined the legal action, wiped away a tear as he learned about the information that might have helped his case.

"By knowing all this, why do we waste all our time in the prison and separate from our family? I don't know," he told the BBC. "I'm 69 years old - too old to go through all these things."

 

[Stargrunt6]

On 2/20/2024 at 8:29 AM, DB said:

Funny things, memories. Who knew they were subject to filtering by political persuasion?

The Horizon software was installed in 1999. The prosecutions ran from then until 2009.

Labour was in power from 1997 to 2010 (Blair and Brown, in case you've forgotten).

Could you, for once, actually think for a moment and cross-check this stuff before you open your yap, or rather, let those 100wpm fingers spout yet more nonsense?

[Stuart Galbraith]

Whom was in office from 2010 till 2020, when the scandal finally broke? Whom clearly from the above source I posted today, helped the post office obfuscate the investigation in 2016? Further, whom has continually delayed financial settlement to the postmasters till the present day?

You can hold Labour to account, and you are perfectly right to do so. I too would like to see Tony Blair and Gordon Brown in the witness box at the inquiry. But unlike Labour, the Conservatives mismanagement of this is not historic. its ongoing, and its another example of a shoddy and inept Government that came into power with the stated ambition to right all Britains wrongs, and ended up pouring petrol on all the bonfires instead.

How about you cross check the timeline, its all there in black and white.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Post_Office_scandal

 

 

 

Edited February 23, 2024 by Stuart Galbraith

[DB]

You blame the messenger. You couldn't admit that your hair trigger automatic "blame the Tories" response shot you in the arse even once in your life. That you're blaming the Tories for not successfully cleaning up the largest case of corporate abuse of the court system, which even you seem to acknowledge, after prompting, happened under  Labour's watch, just shows how blinkered you are, if there wasn't enough prior art to prove the point already.

[DB]

5 hours ago, Stargrunt6 said:

"...never send to know for whom the slam dunk tolls; it tolls for thee."

[Stargrunt6]

47 minutes ago, DB said:

"...never send to know for whom the slam dunk tolls; it tolls for thee."

"From hell's heart, I dunk on thee!"

[Stuart Galbraith]

34 minutes ago, DB said:

You blame the messenger. You couldn't admit that your hair trigger automatic "blame the Tories" response shot you in the arse even once in your life. That you're blaming the Tories for not successfully cleaning up the largest case of corporate abuse of the court system, which even you seem to acknowledge, after prompting, happened under  Labour's watch, just shows how blinkered you are, if there wasn't enough prior art to prove the point already.

14 years not to fix the problem and actually help the post office cover it up, is not, to my mind at least, a convincing defence of this Government's probity.

This Government came into power in 2010 with a several stated goals.

Return Britain to profitability. We are in a recession again, and have been in stagnation for well over a decade when we haven't been in recession. Oh, except when we had inflation.

To get serious about crime, by sacking 20 thousand police, creating dozens of new offences, and not building any new prisons. Oh, and cutting legal aid. And extending the period for reimbursement  of the wrongly accused ( as they are doing again with the postmasters).

To help the NHS, by cutting it and not building any new hospitals, or keeping up with recruiting new nurses to replace those leaving in frustration.

Strengthen Britain's prestige abroad. By cutting defence by a third, pulling our Army back from the continent at just the time it was needed there in 3 decades, and withdrawing us from our biggest trading partner and selling the country out to Russian hoods.

Fixing all the mistakes Labour made. So they stuck around in Afghanistan, watched as NHS dentistry collapsed and failed to deal with illegal immigration. Yes, all huge labour mistakes.

It's not about being blinkered, it's about observing shit governance and calling it what it is, without ranting about a Government 14 years ago being responsible for all of today's mistakes.This Government is very good at clinging to power like shit to a blanket, but can you tell me one problem in a decade and a half they fixed? Because I'm damned if I can think of one. The post office scandal is just one more in a litany of shitness. They are so bad, even Tories have noticed, your good self excepted of course.

[sunday]

Oh noes, the dreaded "whom" mistake again...

[Stuart Galbraith]

Oh, and don't get me started on areated concrete!

[rmgill]

18 hours ago, Stuart Galbraith said:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-68146054.amp

David Cameron's government knew the Post Office had ditched a secret investigation that might have helped wrongly accused postmasters prove their innocence, the BBC can reveal.

The 2016 investigation trawled 17 years of records to find out how often, and why, cash accounts on the Horizon IT system had been tampered with remotely.

Ministers were told an investigation was happening.

But after postmasters began legal action, it was suddenly stopped.

The secret investigation adds to evidence that the Post Office knew Horizon's creator, Fujitsu, could remotely fiddle with sub-postmaster's cash accounts - even as it argued in court, two years later, that it was impossible.

The revelations have prompted an accusation that the Post Office may have broken the law - and the government did nothing to prevent it. Paul Marshall, a barrister who represented some sub-postmasters, said: "On the face of it, it discloses a conspiracy by the Post Office to pervert the course of justice."

Senapathy Narenthiran, known as Naren, a convicted sub-postmaster from Ramsgate in Kent who joined the legal action, wiped away a tear as he learned about the information that might have helped his case.

"By knowing all this, why do we waste all our time in the prison and separate from our family? I don't know," he told the BBC. "I'm 69 years old - too old to go through all these things."

 

Given the breadth of the people impacted by this, I think you' need to bring back hangings at the Old Bailey for this. 

Hundreds of people's lives were ruined by this. 

[rmgill]

6 hours ago, Stuart Galbraith said:

14 years not to fix the problem and actually help the post office cover it up, is not, to my mind at least, a convincing defence of this Government's probity.

So the Tories get blamed because labour fucked it up and didn't fix it itself? 

It's the Tories fault when labour screws the pooch. But it's ALSO the Tories fault when they bin it up? 

That seems fair. 

6 hours ago, Stuart Galbraith said:

This Government came into power in 2010 with a several stated goals.

Completely beside the point. 

Why didn't the Labour folks who are the party of the people protect the bloody people? 

6 hours ago, Stuart Galbraith said:

It's not about being blinkered, it's about observing shit governance and calling it what it is,

So Labour did this themselves? How long did they take to get rid of Corbyn? 

6 hours ago, Stuart Galbraith said:

without ranting about a Government 14 years ago being responsible for all of today's mistakes.This Government is very good at clinging to power like shit to a blanket, but can you tell me one problem in a decade and a half they fixed? Because I'm damned if I can think of one. The post office scandal is just one more in a litany of shitness. They are so bad, even Tories have noticed, your good self excepted of course.

Like I said, you need to start hanging people. The fact that the antisemitic socialist cuss Corbyn is STILL an MP is telling. 

[Ssnake]

Maybe it's not so much a Labour vs Tories question, but more one of 

a. shockingly corrupt post office officials trying to cover up their own incompetence

b. some less-than-vigorous oversight from government civil servants, because they usually escape consequences for bad work, everywhere, irrespective of party affiliation

[Stuart Galbraith]

7 hours ago, rmgill said:

So the Tories get blamed because labour fucked it up and didn't fix it itself? 

It's the Tories fault when labour screws the pooch. But it's ALSO the Tories fault when they bin it up? 

That seems fair. 

Completely beside the point. 

Why didn't the Labour folks who are the party of the people protect the bloody people? 

So Labour did this themselves? How long did they take to get rid of Corbyn? 

Like I said, you need to start hanging people. The fact that the antisemitic socialist cuss Corbyn is STILL an MP is telling. 

Did you ever hear Margaret Thatchers speech when she got into power in 1979? Ill repeat it for you.

'I would just like to remember some words of St. Francis of Assisi which I think are really just particularly apt at the moment. 'Where there is discord, may we bring harmony. Where there is error, may we bring truth. Where there is doubt, may we bring faith. And where there is despair, may we bring hope.'

Which for a select few, undoubtedly came true. For the rest of us, undoubtedly didnt even get close. And I note that many of her advisors told her not to make the speach, because she was setting the bar far too high.

https://www.margaretthatcher.org/archive/StFrancis

 

Ill similarly refer you to the speech by David Cameron when he entered office in 2010, and Ill highlight a few words.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2010/may/11/david-cameron-speech-full-text

Her Majesty the Queen has asked me to form a new government and I have accepted.

Before I talk about that new government, let me say something about the one that has just passed.

 

Compared with a decade ago, this country is more open at home and more compassionate abroad and that is something we should all be grateful for and on behalf of the whole country I'd like to pay tribute to the outgoing prime minister for his long record of dedicated public service.

In terms of the future, our country has a hung parliament where no party has an overall majority and we have some deep and pressing problems - a huge deficit, deep social problems, a political system in need of reform.

For those reasons I aim to form a proper and full coalition between the Conservatives and the Liberal Democrats.

I believe that is the right way to provide this country with the strong, the stable, the good and decent government that I think we need so badly.

Nick Clegg and I are both political leaders that want to put aside party differences and work hard for the common good and for the national interest.

I believe that is the best way to get the strong government that we need, decisive government that we need today.

I came into politics because I love this country. I think its best days still lie ahead and I believe deeply in public service.

And I think the service our country needs right now is to face up to our really big challenges, to confront our problems, to take difficult decisions, to lead people through those difficult decisions, so that together we can reach better times ahead.

One of the tasks that we clearly have is to rebuild trust in our political system. Yes that's about cleaning up expenses, yes that is about reforming parliament, and yes it is about making sure people are in control - and that the politicians are always their servant and never their masters.

 

But I believe it is also something else. It is about being honest about what government can achieve. Real change is not what government can do on its own - real change is when everyone pulls together, comes together, works together, where we all exercise our responsibilities to ourselves, to our families, to our communities and to others.

And I want to help try and build a more responsible society here in Britain. One where we don't just ask what are my entitlements, but what are my responsibilities.

One where we don't ask what am I just owed, but more what can I give.

And a guide for that society - that those that can should, and those who can't we will always help.

I want to make sure that my government always looks after the elderly, the frail the poorest in our country.

We must take everyone through with us on some of the difficult decisions we have ahead.

Above all it will be a government that is built on some clear values. Values of freedom, values of fairness, and values of responsibility.

I want us to build an economy that rewards work. I want us to build a society with stronger families and stronger communities. And I want a political system that people can trust and look up to once again.

This is going to be hard and difficult work. A coalition will throw up all sorts of challenges.

But I believe together we can provide that strong and stable government that our country needs based on those values - rebuilding family, rebuilding community, above all, rebuilding responsibility in our country.

Those are the things I care about. Those are the things that this government will now start work on doing.

Thank you very much.

 

Read how many times he wrote 'Strong and Stable.' Have we had that? At any point?

Its not JUST about the Post Office scandal. Yes, DB is right, that started on Labours watch. But these guys had 14 years to fix it, and still have not done so. They had 14 years to fix the rest of the problems int the country, from security, crime, the economy, a host of problems, either left by labour or were just part of the bill for the 2008 crash.

Is the country stronger today in 2024, than it was in 2010? Yes, or no? You justifiably complained about the evaporating British Army, fair enough. I agree with you. That is just the most visible manifestation of the country's economic decline. You cannot continue to blame everythign on pre 2010. Sooner or later these guys have to take the rap for what has NOT been done on their watch, as well as the things that were, badly.

Edited February 24, 2024 by Stuart Galbraith

[Stuart Galbraith]

32 minutes ago, Ssnake said:

Maybe it's not so much a Labour vs Tories question, but more one of 

a. shockingly corrupt post office officials trying to cover up their own incompetence

b. some less-than-vigorous oversight from government civil servants, because they usually escape consequences for bad work, everywhere, irrespective of party affiliation

The problem is that the Post Office is still half Government owned, so there shoudl still be some degree of Government oversight. And indeed, the Government were apparently informed about the progress of the investigation at least on one date.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-68146054

The secret investigation was uncovered through a BBC analysis of confidential government documents, obtained under the Freedom of Information Act, from a time in 2015 and 2016 when the Post Office was under growing pressure to get to the bottom of sub-postmasters' claims of injustice.

Hundreds of sub-postmasters had been prosecuted and jailed for cash shortfalls which were in fact caused by the Horizon IT system. They had long suspected that remote tinkering may have contributed to the problem.

The documents show how the secret 2016 investigation - looking into Fujitsu's use of remote access from 1999 onwards - had come out of a review by former top Treasury lawyer Jonathan Swift QC. The Swift review had been ordered by the government, with approval from then-business secretary Sajid Javid.

It would conclude that it had found "real issues" for the Post Office.

Mr Swift had found a briefing for the Post Office board from an earlier review in 2014, carried out by auditors from Deloitte and codenamed Project Zebra, detailing how Fujitsu could change branch accounts.

Having seen that evidence, the Swift review said the Post Office must carry out a further investigation into how often and why this capability was used.

Deloitte returned in February 2016 to begin the trawl of all Horizon transactions since its launch 17 years earlier.

Ministers, including Mr Javid, were told this new work was under way to "address suggestions that branch accounts might have been remotely altered without complainants' knowledge".

But in June 2016, when sub-postmasters launched their legal action, the government was told through Post Office minister Baroness Neville-Rolfe that the investigation had been scrapped on "very strong advice" from the senior barrister representing them.

There is no evidence in the documents that then-prime minister David Cameron knew about the investigation or that it had been ditched.

It meant that over two years, the Post Office had spent millions of pounds on three separate reviews into remote access - Project Zebra, the Swift review and the 2016 Deloitte investigation - while publicly claiming it was impossible.

But all three were buried by the Post Office. Neither the Swift review nor Project Zebra were disclosed to sub-postmasters, depriving them of vital information that could have helped them in court; and the Deloitte investigation was halted before it could deliver its findings.

 

 

Which is frankly odd, because Sajid Javid struck me as one of the few people in that Cabinet whom seemed to know what the hell they were doing, so we can probably rule out incompetence. Basically, the Government dodged an opportunity to have identified the problem as long ago as 8 years ago, but didnt take it, for whatever reason.

 

Hence why I believe this is more than jsut an internal Post Office mistake. To me, it looks more like deliberate obfuscation, because the Government didnt want to be caught with the settlement when they found out the system was broken.

Edited February 24, 2024 by Stuart Galbraith

[Ssnake]

It most certainly was deliberate obfuscation, but carried out at the highest level. Passivity at the government and civil servant level is sufficient to explain what happened. Which is bad, yes, but happens all the time in pretty much every larger bureaucracy because the people working there aren't hyper-motivated monks. They are as stupid and lazy as everybody else, ans as such they have set up a system to distribute responsibility to the point where nobody is responsible for anything. But that's not something you can pin on one particular political party.

It might not even have been malicious intent at the Post Office board of directors - up to the point when they decided to cover up their incompetence, at which point it became pure evil, born from cowardice.

[Stuart Galbraith]

2 minutes ago, Ssnake said:

It most certainly was deliberate obfuscation, but carried out at the highest level. Passivity at the government and civil servant level is sufficient to explain what happened. Which is bad, yes, but happens all the time in pretty much every larger bureaucracy because the people working there aren't hyper-motivated monks. They are as stupid and lazy as everybody else, ans as such they have set up a system to distribute responsibility to the point where nobody is responsible for anything. But that's not something you can pin on one particular political party.

It might not even have been malicious intent at the Post Office board of directors - up to the point when they decided to cover up their incompetence, at which point it became pure evil, born from cowardice.

This is my personal bone of contention, that the UK seems over a series of decades to have been turned from a meritocracy to a mediocracy. And handsomely reward directors for it in fact. We can argue about whom is responsible for that, but that my local water company took out a loan 40 years ago to pay off shareholders and has never in fact invested in its decaying infrastrure to the point where its collapsing, to me, neatly illustrates the post office mismanagement is not the exception people would like to think it is.

https://inews.co.uk/news/thames-water-collapse-who-owns-uk-biggest-supplier-what-happens-administration-2439998

So there is two specific peeves I have. The Post office scandal in isolation, which is yes,all the political parties contributed to, though one party seems to be deflecting ALL responsiblity onto the previous indumbent. And a far wider malaise, which has much deeper roots, and to my mind, encompasses this issue and several others. That existed prior to 2010, but arguably has intensified with a distinct reluctance to hold mangers reponsible for significant failures. That to my mind clearly dates back to the changes put in place in the 1980's, when it became fashionable to reward failure rather than examine the causes why failure occurred.

DB wants to see this in isolation, and thats absolutely fine. I have no beef with him.  But equally Its also absolutely fine that I cant and dont subscribe to that perspective.

[sunday]

Looks like a reveal of what the deep state is, and what can do.