Masters of the Air

[rmgill]

12 minutes ago, sunday said:

The perception is that Allied aviators downed over Germany were often lynched.

A form of cinematographic cherrypicking.

The numbers of Allied POWs in the Stalag Lufts say otherwise. The depicted incident IS apparently an account of a thing that happened. 

The treatment by the LW and the specter of the Gestapo/SS coming in and executing a bunch of escaped airmen is a reality and as the war drew down, many of the Heer and Luftwaffe were distinctly aware that the dread of war crimes trials was a manifest reality. 

[sunday]

12 minutes ago, rmgill said:

The numbers of Allied POWs in the Stalag Lufts say otherwise. The depicted incident IS apparently an account of a thing that happened. 

The treatment by the LW and the specter of the Gestapo/SS coming in and executing a bunch of escaped airmen is a reality and as the war drew down, many of the Heer and Luftwaffe were distinctly aware that the dread of war crimes trials was a manifest reality. 

Of course. They are not shooting a documentary, after all.

[Markus Becker]

2 hours ago, rmgill said:

The existence of these squads to get there FIRSTest would be the reason why the scene was shown. Because if they didn't or they didn't have the wherewithal to protect them. Of course the scene was also due to a different squad transporting the downed flyers not realizing the hazard of walking through the freshly bombed city the RAF had just plastered. Such is the issue with low ranking troops and lack of forethought. 

But that's a lot of things coinciding. For some reason you need to walk the POW, the town needs to be bombed very recently and the guards need to be not up to the task. 

8k US airmen in just one of the POW camps indicate this was a rare exception indeed.  

[NickM]

25 minutes ago, Markus Becker said:

But that's a lot of things coinciding. For some reason you need to walk the POW, the town needs to be bombed very recently and the guards need to be not up to the task. 

8k US airmen in just one of the POW camps indicate this was a rare exception indeed.  

Unless some guards were in the towns that got flash fried and were feeling vindictive.  But as a rule higher-ups wanted the pows as bargaining chups

YEARS ago some author on CSpan  referred to blizzard marches in early 45, and some of the guards DID march POWs thru bombed towns. Between exposure to the cold And to hostile Civvies, an unknown number of POWs either died or just disappeared 

[Stuart Galbraith]

I can think of one US pilot who fall in with an SAS unit in France in 1944. He got captured along with them, and was executed with them.  Then there is the Great Escape. Even some of the survivors ended up in a concentration  camp.

I think we can all agree that losses to lynching or summary execution were statistically very low. But that doesn't mean anyone shot down over a target they had just bombed or strafed wasn't in direct risk of it, because they clearly were.

[rmgill]

1 hour ago, NickM said:

Unless some guards were in the towns that got flash fried and were feeling vindictive.  But as a rule higher-ups wanted the pows as bargaining chups

Or they wanted to be sure that the Tit for Tat was not in reverse. The Luftwaffe was, for much of the war the most adamant about treatment of Allied POW's as they themselves had their own downed flyers who'd potentially be captured. 

1 hour ago, NickM said:

YEARS ago some author on CSpan  referred to blizzard marches in early 45, and some of the guards DID march POWs thru bombed towns. Between exposure to the cold And to hostile Civvies, an unknown number of POWs either died or just disappeared 

Instances like the Canadians murdered by the 12th SS and the Malmedy massacre are notable and known examples. It stands to reason that there were instances that were just erased by the fog of war where those that knew of the instance carried the story to their grave. 

[rmgill]

2 hours ago, Markus Becker said:

But that's a lot of things coinciding. For some reason you need to walk the POW, the town needs to be bombed very recently and the guards need to be not up to the task. 

8k US airmen in just one of the POW camps indicate this was a rare exception indeed.  

I suspect that if flyers are being moved towards Germany where a luftstalag is and Germany is the target, then they'll like lt be moving eastwards through/past towns that were bombed. As I also expect that the RAF and the USAAF were coordinating on targets. 

And it's not to say that one town was always the target, either deliberate Coordinated or due to a miss-drop. 

[sunday]

No, crews downed over occupied Europe got helped by brave, smart and kind peasants and their beauteous daughters fell head over heels for them, keeping their bed warm while waiting for the plucky guide to come and guide them through mysterious but friendly Spain. Those did not end in a Stalag, but went to watch the bullfights at Pamplona.

You did watch, did not you?

[rmgill]

6 hours ago, sunday said:

No, crews downed over occupied Europe got helped by brave, smart and kind peasants and their beauteous daughters fell head over heels for them, keeping their bed warm while waiting for the plucky guide to come and guide them through mysterious but friendly Spain. Those did not end in a Stalag, but went to watch the bullfights at Pamplona.

You did watch, did not you?

My Great Uncle did. I don't think there was a romantic thing though...might have been...He did say he spent a great deal of time in the basement.

If I ever get to France, I hope I can find Mrs Goitte's descendants and give them a bottle of something nice.  I suspect Uncle Wayne went back to say hello...

Grady Wayne Roper

Service numbers O-790158

Highest rank Lieutenant Colonel

Role/job Navigator

Shot down in 9 October 1942 in B-17 41-9018 while serving as Navigator. Crashed near the Raismes forest, Northern France. Evaded thanks to Mrs Goitte, who lived at 125, rue Gustave Delory in Saint-Amand-les-Eaux.
 

There's a monument on the D955 in France where the aircrew mostly landed. 6 crew were KIA, 2 captured. Uncle Wayne escaped. 

 

Edited March 5 by rmgill

[sunday]

Nothing wrong with that.

[Markus Becker]

19 hours ago, rmgill said:

I suspect that if flyers are being moved towards Germany where a luftstalag is and Germany is the target, then they'll like lt be moving eastwards through/past towns that were bombed. As I also expect that the RAF and the USAAF were coordinating on targets. 

Yes, but if they were bombed last week order would have been long restored and in any case the movement would be by vehicle. Usually train for security reasons. Back then the railway net was way more dense than today, fairly difficult to disable and easy to repair. 

 

[rmgill]

Smaller junctions would be getting hit by lighter bomber groups too. I am not sure when they really started but once the invasion happened, transportation nodes woulD be frequent targets. At that point in the story, the Italian Landings would have been in the offing. So transport nodes to disrupt supply were more frequent. Neighborhoods around such a rail yard/junction would be bad places to be.  

[Markus Becker]

 

Hollywood 1, history 0

[rmgill]

Greg covers the P47 vs P51 issue vis a vist drop tanks. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aCLa078v69k

Edited March 11 by rmgill

[rmgill]

 

[NickM]

On 3/11/2024 at 12:22 PM, Markus Becker said:

 

Hollywood 1, history 0

 

Agreed! The mustangs would never be so close to the bombers--they'd either patrol a given area, or range ahead and abeam of the bomber stream, looking for German Fighters to head off before they get anywhere near the bombers.

And anyways, bomber gunners were very trigger happy--anything with a single engine was a fair target...but I guess the moral of the story is that the escorts DID, in fact, deal a severe blow to the luftwaffe.

[Markus Becker]

45 minutes ago, NickM said:

 

Agreed! The mustangs would never be so close to the bombers--they'd either patrol a given area, or range ahead and abeam of the bomber stream, looking for German Fighters to head off before they get anywhere near the bombers.

And anyways, bomber gunners were very trigger happy--anything with a single engine was a fair target...but I guess the moral of the story is that the escorts DID, in fact, deal a severe blow to the luftwaffe.

Absolutely! Long range fighters were crucial. So much that this abrupt introduction disappoints me.