Masters of the Air

[Stuart Galbraith]

6 minutes ago, Ssnake said:

General Monash

Id admittedly Id not heard of him, but yes, it would seem so.

There was an interesting article in Flypast magazine about the British Commander of No303 Kosciuszko squadron in the Battle of Britain. He was a reservist, and as such was not wedded to the authodoxy of setting the guns wide. So he listened to these polish guys who had fought in 3 wars already, many of whom were instructors, whom told him they needed to set the guns narrow, and whom wanted to modify the vic formation. So he said, yeah go ahead, dont worry about fighter command, I shant tell them. And they had the highest kill ratio and lowest loss ratio of any of the squadrons in the Battle of Britain.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ronald_Gustave_Kellett

 

Edited February 22 by Stuart Galbraith

[Ssnake]

50 minutes ago, Stuart Galbraith said:

Id admittedly Id not heard of him

Read. His. Biography. - if you can still find a copy (there's at least two; I think I read the one by Grantlee Kieza; Amazon has affordable Kindle editions, printed copies seem to be a tad more costly and harder to find).

 

A truly remarkable character; the most powerful Allied General in Spring/Summer 1918, and basically the first to conduct truly integrated combine arms operations. Basically, he broke the Reichswehr's spine with the combined ANZAC and Canadian corps counteroffensive.

He participated in Gallipoli for the entire duration, brought rebar concrete to Australia, built the Sydney Harbor bridge, electrified Australia, invented ANZAC day. Jewish. German Ancestry. Colonial. Reserve officer. You couldn't find one who had the cards more stacked against him in WW1.

His funeral in 1931 was attended by 250,000 people.

[Stuart Galbraith]

1 hour ago, Ssnake said:

Read. His. Biography. - if you can still find a copy (there's at least two; I think I read the one by Grantlee Kieza; Amazon has affordable Kindle editions, printed copies seem to be a tad more costly and harder to find).

 

A truly remarkable character; the most powerful Allied General in Spring/Summer 1918, and basically the first to conduct truly integrated combine arms operations. Basically, he broke the Reichswehr's spine with the combined ANZAC and Canadian corps counteroffensive.

He participated in Gallipoli for the entire duration, brought rebar concrete to Australia, built the Sydney Harbor bridge, electrified Australia, invented ANZAC day. Jewish. German Ancestry. Colonial. Reserve officer. You couldn't find one who had the cards more stacked against him in WW1.

His funeral in 1931 was attended by 250,000 people.

Oh, THAT General. Yes, Ive read the Osprey book on that offensive, I didnt connect him with that.

 

[Markus Becker]

BTW, if you guys have a few hours of time, hop over to Greg's Aircraft and Automobiles channel and watch his series of videos on the P-47. 

[Markus Becker]

On 2/22/2024 at 10:39 AM, Stuart Galbraith said:

Id admittedly Id not heard of him, but yes, it would seem so.

There was an interesting article in Flypast magazine about the British Commander of No303 Kosciuszko squadron in the Battle of Britain. He was a reservist, and as such was not wedded to the authodoxy of setting the guns wide. So he listened to these polish guys who had fought in 3 wars already, many of whom were instructors, whom told him they needed to set the guns narrow, and whom wanted to modify the vic formation. So he said, yeah go ahead, dont worry about fighter command, I shant tell them. And they had the highest kill ratio and lowest loss ratio of any of the squadrons in the Battle of Britain.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ronald_Gustave_Kellett

 

Three wars? Two campaigns I get. Polish and French but wars? 

And no wonder they weren't happy with the wide spread. Afaik that was (in part) done do to ensure even a bad shot could get some hits. And it came up before armor and protected fuel tanks became a thing. 

Veterans and instructors would be anything but bad shots and I seem to recall that even within the mainstream RAF the wide spread and firing from distance were done away with. 

[sunday]

17 hours ago, Markus Becker said:

Three wars? Two campaigns I get. Polish and French but wars? 

And no wonder they weren't happy with the wide spread. Afaik that was (in part) done do to ensure even a bad shot could get some hits. And it came up before armor and protected fuel tanks became a thing. 

Veterans and instructors would be anything but bad shots and I seem to recall that even within the mainstream RAF the wide spread and firing from distance were done away with. 

Polish-Bolshevik war of 1922, I think.

Worst episode until now, also.

Edited February 24 by sunday

[rmgill]

The September Campaign was the War in Poland and could technically called it's own war. 

 

[Stuart Galbraith]

15 hours ago, Markus Becker said:

BTW, if you guys have a few hours of time, hop over to Greg's Aircraft and Automobiles channel and watch his series of videos on the P-47. 

Yes, he has done some excellent ones on DCS. I dont fly the p47 enough. Its a very strange aircraft, but you feel near invincible in it.

[Stuart Galbraith]

15 hours ago, Markus Becker said:

Three wars? Two campaigns I get. Polish and French but wars? 

And no wonder they weren't happy with the wide spread. Afaik that was (in part) done do to ensure even a bad shot could get some hits. And it came up before armor and protected fuel tanks became a thing. 

Veterans and instructors would be anything but bad shots and I seem to recall that even within the mainstream RAF the wide spread and firing from distance were done away with. 

Wrongspeak on my part. I mean they were on their third campaign already. Sorry about that.

There is an account in the flypast article, there was some people at group not believing the Polish kills, so one of them decided to go on an operation about a mile back and watch them (at no small risk to himself actually). His response as he watched German aircraft dropping out the sky was 'my God, it actually IS true!'

There is a perception in the UK, that these guys were on something like a deathwish, which is why they were closing to unspeakably close ranges. In truth it was all very calculated, and the low loss rate was down to the fact they couldnt take casualties, because they would be unlikely to replace them. There were lost of ocasions when people broke off sure kills, to go all in to protect a buddy.

Supposedly there is a new book coming out on it, which will probably be worth reading.

[Der Zeitgeist]

So Episode 6 IMO was the best yet.

Interestingly one that didn't spend any time in the air or with the bombers at all, but mostly showed the POW perspective for those bailing out over Germany and, for those who made it back, some R&R in England. 

[Stuart Galbraith]

Did they show much of the ratlines?

The R and R places are an interesting subject that I dont think gets enough coverage.

Edited February 24 by Stuart Galbraith

[DB]

On 2/8/2024 at 6:34 PM, rmgill said:

Whats the issue with the clip? Ever flown in a plane crabbing in on an approach? 

It looks hairy and pretty accurate to me. The yaw and roll inputs from the crosswind are a bear  

I have and I’ve even had a discussion with a pilot (WWII to jet age), my grand father on the subject along with my mother whom he taught to fly. 
 

 

 

The most jarring issue for me was the instantaneous jerk with the change of heading, but otherwise it had the "uncanny valley" feel of the aircraft looking like it was pasted into the background rather than being part of it. Lighting or tonal mismatch, perhaps.

I didn't have the audio on - was anyone trying to remind the pilot about a 3 degree angle of descent, or was he trying to run in on ground effect for the lols?

[Der Zeitgeist]

16 minutes ago, Stuart Galbraith said:

Did they show much of the ratlines?

They showed a bit of that a few episodes ago for a crew that was shot down over Belgium and then picked up by the local resistance and smuggled through France.

Yesterday's episode was about those who landed in Germany and were actually captured there. Interesting scenes include the entire issue of lynchings by civilians in a city that was just bombed by the RAF, interrogation by a Luftwaffe officer who knows a surprising amount about the guy they just picked up, and finally ending up in Stalag Luft III.

[rmgill]

 

[Markus Becker]

On 2/24/2024 at 1:10 PM, Der Zeitgeist said:

Yesterday's episode was about those who landed in Germany and were actually captured there. Interesting scenes include the entire issue of lynchings by civilians in a city that was just bombed by the RAF, ...

That would have been the rare exception from the rule. The LW had flying squads with cars at the outside of cities watching for parachutes to get the allied airman before angry civilians could. Once under armed guard the POWs should have been safe. 

[sunday]

1 hour ago, Markus Becker said:

That would have been the rare exception from the rule. The LW had flying squads with cars at the outside of cities watching for parachutes to get the allied airman before angry civilians could. Once under armed guard the POWs should have been safe. 

That would distract of presenting WWII-era Germans as a whole bunch of bloodthirsty Nazis, kids included. That Luftwaffe interrogator looked very much like Allo Allo's Herr Flick from the Gestapo, also.

Edited March 3 by sunday

[Markus Becker]

Well, they probably decided to get everything that ever happened to allied airmen into the storyline of the show about this particular unit.

*Google* By the looks not the only but the worst case of a lynching. 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rüsselsheim_massacre

 

And not a specialty of German civilians either. 

https://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=38195

[NickM]

5 minutes ago, Markus Becker said:

Well, they probably decided to get everything that ever happened to allied airmen into the storyline of the show about this particular unit.

*Google* By the looks not the only but the worst case of a lynching. 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rüsselsheim_massacre

 

And not a specialty of German civilians either. 

https://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=38195

Same in Malta. 

 

 

[NickM]

Gang,

 

How many Allied Aircrews got taken prisoner by Germany during the war?

[Markus Becker]

Just now, NickM said:

Same in Malta. 

How could I forget! 

The sea air rescue boats were operated by locals. After picking up a downed British airman they approached another, asked him if he was British and when the man answered in the negative they hurled some verbal abuse at him and turned the boat around. Luckily the British airman in the boat then recognized his squadron mate ... from Canada. 

[Markus Becker]

42 minutes ago, NickM said:

Gang,

 

How many Allied Aircrews got taken prisoner by Germany during the war?

Quite a lot by the looks of it. 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stalag_Luft_IV

That's the equivalent of 800 B-17. In one camp.

[Stuart Galbraith]

Ive not read of any convincing cases of German airmen killed here. Im not saying it never happened, just that it would be surprising if it wasnt discussed at this late date. There was a case where I think a crewman out of a german aircraft over London. Supposedly he was injured either on the escape from the aircraft or the landing. He was roughed up by the locals whom went through his wallet, and subsequently died. Im not aware there was ever a convincing argument made that he was killed from being assaulted, but it is of course possible. It might be the case refered to in the link Markus posted (I seem to recall it happened over the East End, but I may be mistaken).

There is a much better known case where a Heinkel 111 crash landed on a beach, with a member of the home guard armed with a Bren gun opened up on it. When this came out 40 years later it was trumpeted by our tabloids as 'Britains war crime'. The team at After the Battle Magazine went and researched it, even found the pilot whom was still alive at the time, whom said that after an attack by fighters, he never heard the rest of the crew over the intercom. His opinion was they were already dead, long before the Home Guard fired on his aircraft (and he hadnt surrendered at that point anyway, making it somewhat academic). Interestingly the lower gun position was recovered from the beach some 40 years later, so at least some of it survived.

I can think of at least one example where something that could be considered a war crime occurred above the UK, when an RAF pilot got strafed by a Luftwaffe pilot in his parachute. Although in fairness, the Eighth airforce went in for that kind of thing as well, so you would have struggled to have made a case in court.

 

[rmgill]

20 hours ago, Markus Becker said:

That would have been the rare exception from the rule. The LW had flying squads with cars at the outside of cities watching for parachutes to get the allied airman before angry civilians could. Once under armed guard the POWs should have been safe. 

The existence of these squads to get there FIRSTest would be the reason why the scene was shown. Because if they didn't or they didn't have the wherewithal to protect them. Of course the scene was also due to a different squad transporting the downed flyers not realizing the hazard of walking through the freshly bombed city the RAF had just plastered. Such is the issue with low ranking troops and lack of forethought. 

[sunday]

The perception is that Allied aviators downed over Germany were often lynched.

A form of cinematographic cherrypicking.

Edited March 4 by sunday

[rmgill]

Better to be shot down over occupied territory. There the civilians were nominally friendly as my Great Uncle found out.