US approves Turkish F-16 sale

[Dawes]

That came pretty rapidly after Turkey approved Sweden's entry into NATO:

https://www.dsca.mil/sites/default/files/mas/Press Release - Turkey 23-07 CN.pdf

[Dawes]

I noticed that approval of the Turkish sale occurred on the same day that an F-35 sale to Greece was approved. Some connection here or just coincidence?

https://www.dsca.mil/sites/default/files/mas/Press Release - Greece 23-01 CN.pdf

[urbanoid]

So the Turks got the F-16s approved, while the Greeks got the same for F-35s. Personally I'm kinda amused.

[Dawes]

 Part of the Turkish sale is "nine hundred fifty-two (952) Advanced Medium Range Air-to-Air Missiles (AMRAAM) AIM-120C-8 or equivalent missiles". Does the US have an "equivalent"?

[TrustMe]

46 minutes ago, Dawes said:

 Part of the Turkish sale is "nine hundred fifty-two (952) Advanced Medium Range Air-to-Air Missiles (AMRAAM) AIM-120C-8 or equivalent missiles". Does the US have an "equivalent"?

There's a D version but the US will not sell it to anyone until a new D2 version appears.

[Dawes]

I suppose the Turks might consider the AIM-120D an equivalent to the "C" model, but it's longer-ranged, more capable and more expensive. To me anyway, it's not really a direct equivalent.  Now, I'm sure we have a lot of old AIM-7's in storage... 

[TrustMe]

8 minutes ago, Dawes said:

I suppose the Turks might consider the AIM-120D an equivalent to the "C" model, but it's longer-ranged, more capable and more expensive. To me anyway, it's not really a direct equivalent.  Now, I'm sure we have a lot of old AIM-7's in storage... 

The AIM-7 is still in use. Both the Egyptians and Iraqi's can only use Sparrows on their F16's. No wonder Egypt bought Russian and Frence warplanes. Lacking BVR missiles is a massive technology gap compared to it's Eastern neighbour. 

[Markus Becker]

How is Congress involved? I read one article that says they need to approve this sale and another one that said they can veto it. 

[James1978]

RE: Congressional Involvement

The Congressional Research Service has been kind enough to do some writing on the matter - Arms Sales: Congressional Review Process (Updated January 4, 2024)

Quote

Under the Arms Export Control Act (AECA), the President must formally notify Congress 30 calendar days before the Administration can take the final steps to conclude a government-to-government foreign military sale of major defense equipment valued at $14 million or more, defense articles or services valued at $50 million or more, or design and construction services valued at $200 million or more. In the case of such sales to NATO member states, NATO, Japan, Australia, South Korea, Israel, or New Zealand, the President must formally notify Congress 15 calendar days before the Administration can proceed with the transaction.

. . .

The President must formally notify Congress of commercially licensed arms sales 30 calendar days before Department of State issuance of export licenses for sales of major defense equipment valued at $14 million or more, or defense articles or services valued at $50 million or more. In the case of such sales to NATO member states, NATO, Japan, Australia, South Korea, Israel, or New Zealand, the President must formally notify Congress 15 calendar days before proceeding with the transaction.

. . .

The AECA contains a mechanism for Congress to adopt a joint resolution of disapproval for arms sales notified by the President; Congress has never successfully blocked a proposed arms sale via such a resolution. Congress may adopt legislation to block or modify an arms sale at any time up to the point of delivery of the items involved.

. . .

The President has the authority to waive the AECA statutory review periods. For example, if the President states in the formal notification to Congress under AECA Sections 36(b)(1), 36(c)(2), 36(d)(2) that “an emergency exists” which requires the sale (or export license approval) to be made immediately “in the national security interests of the United States,” the President is free to proceed with the sale without further delay. The President must provide Congress at the time of this notification a “detailed justification for his determination, including a description of the emergency circumstances” that necessitated his action and a “discussion of the national security interests involved.”

 

[futon]

Turkey wanted to buy S-400 so they lost prospect to get F-35. Meanwhile Turkey has it's own 5th gen stealth fighter program. Uses F-16 engines, and of course, yet to be seen if a successful program. They are good at drones though.

[DB]

On 1/27/2024 at 7:24 PM, TrustMe said:

The AIM-7 is still in use. Both the Egyptians and Iraqi's can only use Sparrows on their F16's. No wonder Egypt bought Russian and Frence warplanes. Lacking BVR missiles is a massive technology gap compared to it's Eastern neighbour. 

Technically AIM-7 is a BVR missile, but it's semi-active homing which is essentially obsolete as a guidance system. Unless they got only the AIM-7E, which was a bit shit and would be about 50 years old now.

[TrustMe]

1 hour ago, DB said:

Technically AIM-7 is a BVR missile, but it's semi-active homing which is essentially obsolete as a guidance system. Unless they got only the AIM-7E, which was a bit shit and would be about 50 years old now.

The AIM-7M version that the Egyptians and Iraqi's have is the same model that the US AF used in the Gulf War 1991. It's over 30 years old technology.

[urbanoid]

When did AIM-7 production end?

[DB]

You said "lacking BVR missiles..."

[TrustMe]

2 hours ago, urbanoid said:

When did AIM-7 production end?

I'm not sure about production but they still definitely produce spare parts for it still, maybe with a little upgrading of older missiles.

 

Edited February 7, 2024 by TrustMe

[TrustMe]

2 hours ago, DB said:

You said "lacking BVR missiles..."

 

In Vietnam, the US AF aircraft like the F4 could use BVR Sparrows however the rules of engagement (after several near blue on blue kills)  stated that they could only be used in WVR combat. By 1991, advances in AWACS technology meant that controlled BVR combat could happen but (maybe due to rules of engagement) they were not used in this role. Over Serbia in 1999, the AMRAAM was used in BVR combat agaijnst Serbian Mig29's.

I guess nowadays in a potential NATO v Russian war in Ukraine BVR will be used a lot on the Western and Russian side.

 

[DB]

Go on, it's really easy, just say "oh yes, I was wrong." It's cathartic, and a skill that it's genuinely useful to learn.

[TrustMe]

1 hour ago, DB said:

Go on, it's really easy, just say "oh yes, I was wrong." It's cathartic, and a skill that it's genuinely useful to learn.

 

If you're rules of engagement state that BVR is not to be used then whats the point in having a BVR missile?

[DB]

On 2/7/2024 at 9:14 PM, TrustMe said:

 

If you're rules of engagement state that BVR is not to be used then whats the point in having a BVR missile?

What the hell are you talking about?

Egyptian F-16s, with AIM-7. does nobody have the ability to retain context from one minute to the next?

[TrustMe]

I was refering to the Vitenam air war.