Panzer Brigades and Guderian

[Junior FO]

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Edited September 23, 2024 by Junior FO

[RichTO90]

6 hours ago, Junior FO said:

What is the basis for the below conclusions? Not at all what comes through from the presentation notes that are available online. File 446 ff. from early 1943 onward.

https://wwii.germandocsinrussia.org/de/nodes/824-findbuch-12451-oberkommando-des-heeres-okh?page=2
Where is this from?

Necromancer! 😁

It took me a bit to refocus to an argument I made almost 16 years ago. 😀

 

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I see no mention of Brigades until 18.7.1944 and their genesis seems to have been a decision on 7th July 1944 to form 10 Kampfgruppen from existing Reserve- and refitting Panzer-/PanzerGren Divisions, using resources earmarked for the planned refit of 6th and 19th Panzer Divisions (file 478) as emergency units. Even on the 27th June 1944 (file 476), there is no mention of this and the main focus is on refitting the two Panzer Divisions.

Different brigades, different purpose.

I was referring to the findings from the Gruppe Guderian/XIX Armee-Korps (mot) lessons learned/AAR following the French Campaign, which strongly recommended retaining the Panzer-Brigade with two regiments/four battalions in the Panzer-Division. That got overruled and the best evidence is that when he became Generalinspektur he tried to bring it in via the back door. Stab Panzer-Brigade 10. was a renamed enlargement of Stab Panzer-Regiment 10. with Stab Panzer-Regiment 39. and Panzer-Abteilung 52. and 52. attached, used as a Heerestruppen augmentation to 4. Panzerarmee attached to Grossdeutschland, with a detachment of Stab Panzer-Brigade 10. forming Panzer-Brigade z.b.V. for 9. Armee with s.Panzer-Abteilung 505 and Panzer-Abteilung 216. When reunited after ZITADELLE it acted as a reinforcing brigade, attached to divisions as needed, through the fall.

The next test of the concept was in Italy. Stab 69. Panzer-Regiment was organized as Heerestruppen with I./Panzer-Regiment 4., Panzer-Abteilung 216,. and s.Panzer-Abteilung 508, at Anzio, attached to 26. Panzer-Division and LXXVI Panzer-Korps. Later it added Panzer-Abteilung 208.

The essential failure of both kind of took the rose off the idea by June 1944, but there is some evidence that Guderian envisaged using France to assemble the "decisive" counterattack force for the Ostfront, that would include Panzer-Brigade 10. again, and most of the ten-odd divisions collected there.

The organization of the ten Panzer-Brigaden on 18 July 1944 was the next step in formalizing the concept.

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These Kampfgruppen then grew in size and became Brigades by 17-18th July 1944. Preliminary instructions for their use being issues 26th July.

Nowhere in the prior notes is there any mention or advocacy for creating new Brigades. His general view is expressed clearly in file 462 from 4th March 1944, where he is convinced that the focus should be on rebuilding existing units, and this is a running theme in the previous notes that are available.

The creation of the ten Panzer-Brigaden was driven by circumstances. I suspect Guderian never believed the threat of a continental invasion was real, since he had no real conception of what Allied amphibious capabilities were, beyond the relatively small scale operations in the Med. The idea that the Allies could put 30+ divisions ashore in a few months and supply them in an advance across France seven weeks after landing was fantastical to him I suspect.

Yes, totally focused on rebuilding units for commitment in mass to strike the decisive blow on the Ostfront. Note though, the use of newly organized Panther Abteilungen to reinforce whatever unit was going to be committed. About the only ones that had any regimental or divisional integrity were the SS Panther-Abteilungen, because he had less say over them.

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The other Evergreens are pulling out Panzer/PanzerGren/Tigers/Ferdinands from Italy and sending them East and proper reconstitution of units out of the line instead of drip feeding replacements.

What are "Evergreens"?

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Don't know about wanting them in Paris, but in the notes pre invasion he is of the opinion that large Panzer formations could not operate in range of NGFS and wanted OB West to define a stop line for them.

Yep, but then neither did Rommel think that. He had zero intent of placing Panzer divisions within striking range of NGFS in his scheme. Too many conflate his intent of placing "mobile" troops in the second line of defense with him placing Panzer divisions in that line. He wanted mobile infantry divisions in the second line - Bewegungs-Divisionen - not Panzer-Divisionen. Notably one of his programs in HG-B was reinforcing divisions with additional requisitioned vehicles to create provisionally mobile divisions. The difference between Rommel and Geyr's concept (backed by Guderian) was he wanted the Panzer reserves under the Heeresgruppe and not under OBWest/OKW. In the end, the compromise placed half of the reserve under the Heeresgruppe and the other half under OBWest/OKW, which only complicated and confused matters.

[Junior FO]

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Edited September 23, 2024 by Junior FO

[RichTO90]

12 hours ago, Junior FO said:

https://wwii.germandocsinrussia.org/de/nodes/5493#page/2/mode/inspect/zoom/6

XIX. Armeekorps (Guderian), France

Thank you. I haven't had access to a copy of that for about 17 years now. Yes, that is the recommendation from Guderian on the Panzer Division organization. Keep the Panzer Brigade, make the division even larger.

[Junior FO]

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[Junior FO]

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[Junior FO]

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[RichTO90]

42 minutes ago, Junior FO said:

 

Reasoning for the setting up the Stab Panzer Brigade 10  in

NARA RH_10_59 GenInspdPzTr Vortragsnotizen Mar 43-Jul 44

pages 160-161

It was intended for the combined and concentrated employemnt of 653, 654 and Sturm Pz Abt 216 due to both tactical and maintenance considerations. Due to lack of turrets, MG, etc, they would need to be reinforced with conventional tanks and infantry. The resulting formation size would be too big for a Regimental Staff.

Okay...except that when sent east its Führungsstab was used as a brigade headquarters with the intended purpose of controlling Panzer-Abteilung 51. and 52. under Stab/Panzer-Regiment 39. and the Panzer assets of the division it was attached to. The Restteile when it arrived went to 9. Armee were it acted as a PanzerbrigadeStab z.b.V. with part of Panzer-Abteilung 505., Panzer-Abteilung 216., and bits and pieces of other Heerestruppen.

The actual unit that acted as headquarters for Panzerjaeger-Abteilung 653., 654., and also for a time Panzer Abteilung 216., was Panzerjäger-Regiment 656., which was built from Panzer-Regiment 35.