Army Arabic and Roman numeral designation?

[Rick]

How was it decided that Roman numerals would represent corps and Arabic numbers represent armies and larger organizations? Seems like it would be easier to reverse this. 

[LouieD]

For the U.S. Army

Armies are spelled out:

Seventh U.S. Army

Corps are Roman Numerals

I U.S. Corps

Divisions and below are Arabic Numerals

1st Inf Div, 194th Armor Bde, etc

i had read that was done to reduce confusion.

British Army uses Arabic exclusively, usually without the “st, rd, th,” etc

1 Armd Div

Usually only Bns of Inf Regts, RA Regts, and RAC Regts use/used them in their official title

1st Bn, The Royal Scots

14th/20th King’s Hussars 

1st Field Regt, RHA

the other Corps tend to drop them 

1 Regt, RLC

32 Engr Regt, RE

etc

 

 

[RichTO90]

4 hours ago, Rick said:

How was it decided that Roman numerals would represent corps and Arabic numbers represent armies and larger organizations? Seems like it would be easier to reverse this. 

It is, like everything in the Army, defined by Army Regulations. In this case, AR 220–5, Chapter 2-3, Section d.

Amusingly, like most Army Regulations, its history appears to be lost in time and only the current versions have any reality. 😁

Seriously, during and prior to World War II, there does not appear to be any real consistency in how Arabic and Roman numerals were used in unit designations, especially when it came to Corps and Divisions, which were often given in Arabic numbers, but also were frequently spelled out. About the only consistent thing I can recall is that Roman numerals were only ever used for corps...but I am probably forgetting one exception that proves that rule too. So you can find:

1st Army or First Army

1st Corps, First Corps, I Corps

1st Division, First Division

1st Regiment, First Regiment

I suspect the regulation first appeared sometime after World War II, but cannot track down its earliest iteration beyond 1962. The Pentagon or OCMH Library would be a good place to ask.

[Argus]

If I had to guess, it probably goes back to Napoleon if not earlier, when Corps was the highest established formation so got the more prestigious Latin designator. Armies tended to be nebulous and named after commander and areas.   

[Sardaukar]

FDF used following system in WW II:

Army: There was only one in WW II, Karelian Army (Karjalan Armeija), so no numerals.

Corps: Roman numeral, e.g. III Corps (III AK)

Divisions: Arabic numerals, e.g. 18. D

Brigades: Arabic numerals, e.g. 20. Pr. (FDF brigades didn't belong to divisions, they were independent units. One exception was Jaeger Brigade (JPr.) which was infantry component of Armoured Division. That division and JPr. didn't have numerals in their names, just name.)

Battalions: Roman numerals, e.g. II/20.Pr. etc.

Companies: Arabic numerals, e.g. 7./20.Pr. (Bn numeral was often skipped, since coy number told that it was 7./III/20.Pr.)

Platoons: Roman numerals

 

Edited January 23 by Sardaukar

[Andreas]

The Brits, bless their little cotton socks, used Arabic numbers for Corps in WW2 (13 Corps), and wrote out armies in letters (Eighth Army). I can only think of some deviants in the Royal Air Force who used Roman numerals, and suspect they were public school boys.

http://rommelsriposte.com/2020/01/25/editorial-note-numbering-naming-corps-and-units/

The Germans, being German, used a mostly rational system for numbering, mostly alternating Arabic and Roman, but kinda made up for that by having an utter mess of names for battalion- or division-size units.

http://rommelsriposte.com/2009/08/17/a-note-on-german-military-unit-names/

The Italians named all their divisions, with the infantry divisions being named after locations that they had nothing to do with while the armoured divisions were named after virile animals. They also gave them numbers that nobody ever bothered with. Their Corps either had Roman numbers, or names, or why not both? I like the Italians.

All the best

Andreas

[sunday]

7 hours ago, Andreas said:

The Italians named all their divisions, with the infantry divisions being named after locations that they had nothing to do with while the armoured divisions were named after virile animals. They also gave them numbers that nobody ever bothered with. Their Corps either had Roman numbers, or names, or why not both? I like the Italians.

Abbreviations too, like ARMIR or CSIR.

[Andreas]

Yes, good point. CAM as well.

Also shortened titles. 'Articelere' for Artiglieria Celere.

All the best

Andreas

[sunday]

2 hours ago, Andreas said:

Also shortened titles. 'Articelere' for Artiglieria Celere.

Curiously they also contract some composed given names, resulting in things like Marcantonio or Gianmaria, but that is going off topic.

Quote

When combined with a second given name, Giovanni and Pietro are commonly contracted to Gian- and Pier-, as in Giancarlo, Gianfranco, Gianluca, Gianluigi, Gianmarco, Gianmaria, Giampaolo (Gianpaolo), Giampiero (Gianpiero), Giambattista, Pierangelo, Pierantonio, Pierfranco, Pierluigi, Piermaria, Pierpaolo, and so on.

 

[rohala]

The Greek army uses Greek numerals for Corps (Α, Β, Γ, Δ, Ε) and Roman numerals for divisions. During WW2 divisions 19 and 20 usually appear with Arabic numerals. Brigades and regiments use Arabic numerals. Battalions until WW2 were numbered within their regiment (eg II/67). After WW2 they are numbered individually eg battalion 612. The first digit does in fact have meaning as it denotes the arm. Commando battalions are numbered with Greek numerals (Θ' ΜΑΚ) although they may have two numberings sometimes.

[GJK]

On 1/21/2024 at 5:19 PM, LouieD said:

For the U.S. Army

Armies are spelled out:

Seventh U.S. Army

Corps are Roman Numerals

I U.S. Corps

Divisions and below are Arabic Numerals

1st Inf Div, 194th Armor Bde, etc

i had read that was done to reduce confusion.

British Army uses Arabic exclusively, usually without the “st, rd, th,” etc

1 Armd Div

Usually only Bns of Inf Regts, RA Regts, and RAC Regts use/used them in their official title

1st Bn, The Royal Scots

14th/20th King’s Hussars 

1st Field Regt, RHA

the other Corps tend to drop them 

1 Regt, RLC

32 Engr Regt, RE

etc

 

 

Typically for the UK nothing is straightforward.

When we had a corps, it was described with the Roman numeral in common with other NATO countries - I (BR) Corps, although its official title was 1st British Corps.  Smaller formations did and still use 'st/nd/rd/th' in their official titles but are commonly referred to without, e.g. 7th Armoured Brigade as 7 Brigade.

If anyone knows why we were allowed to use BR as the national descriptor for our corps when our official NATO national descriptor is UK (e.g. 1st (UK) Armoured Division), I would be most grateful!

Best,

Greg.