futon Posted December 8, 2023 Posted December 8, 2023 1 hour ago, rmgill said: We were't looking to rebuild Germany or Japan mid way through WWII. We were looking to defeat them. If that meant destroying both utterly, so be it. This is why when folks like you wring your hands over Israeli atrocities, I wonder if you studied a lick of WWII history and have any perspective at all other than very modern cool sensibilities over war and pie in the sky hope for basic human decency entirely bereft of the reality of what lead to Oct 7th's deliberate rapine, torture and murder. Defeated Japan and bestowed Mao's China and Fat-Kim's North Korea... good job! South Korea and Taiwan dictators for 4 decades. So much for "spread democracy". No oil embargo, no Pearl Harbor.
rmgill Posted December 8, 2023 Posted December 8, 2023 7 hours ago, futon said: Defeated Japan and bestowed Mao's China and Fat-Kim's North Korea... good job! South Korea and Taiwan dictators for 4 decades. So much for "spread democracy". No oil embargo, no Pearl Harbor. No rape of Nanking, no oil embargo.
futon Posted December 8, 2023 Author Posted December 8, 2023 3 hours ago, rmgill said: No rape of Nanking, no oil embargo. Nope, that wasn't the reason. The reason was because by 1940, CKS's Nationalists were on their last legs. No lines of credit, it may have ended.
R011 Posted December 9, 2023 Posted December 9, 2023 3 hours ago, futon said: Nope, that wasn't the reason. The reason was because by 1940, CKS's Nationalists were on their last legs. No lines of credit, it may have ended. Formally allying with Nazi Germany and occupying French Indochina had more than a little to do with it too. Not tha thwarting Japanese aggression wasn't reason enough.
futon Posted December 9, 2023 Author Posted December 9, 2023 (edited) 31 minutes ago, R011 said: Formally allying with Nazi Germany and occupying French Indochina had more than a little to do with it too. Not tha thwarting Japanese aggression wasn't reason enough. Leaving the axis would certainly have been negotiable. Although an end to the second Sino-Japanese War would mean no escalations that lead to Japan joining the axis. The Molotov-Rippentropp pact had a dampening effect on being with Germany. A defusing of tensions with the US over China would leave no more reason for joining the axis to begin with. Along with northern indochina as the purpose of that was to cut off aid. It all hinged on China. Y'all own the CCP China result. Edited December 9, 2023 by futon
rmgill Posted December 10, 2023 Posted December 10, 2023 Japan’s leadership chose the wrong courses of action. Period.
rmgill Posted December 10, 2023 Posted December 10, 2023 On 12/8/2023 at 6:33 PM, futon said: Nope, that wasn't the reason. The reason was because by 1940, CKS's Nationalists were on their last legs. No lines of credit, it may have ended. Its what caused the west’s blood to boil at the atrocities. Thats what got you the embargo.
futon Posted December 10, 2023 Author Posted December 10, 2023 1 hour ago, rmgill said: Its what caused the west’s blood to boil at the atrocities. Thats what got you the embargo. Nah, not really. You're inflating it.
rmgill Posted December 12, 2023 Posted December 12, 2023 How many Americans who were alive from that era have YOU talked to? There was a hate for Japan by my grandparents and great grand parents generation that is specifically related to Nanking, Bataan and other similar atrocities that were orgies of horror by Japanese Troops. I think you're downplaying it.
futon Posted December 13, 2023 Author Posted December 13, 2023 https://www.tanknet.org/index.php?/topic/48436-iron-swords-vs-al-aqsa-deluge-israelpalestinians-again/&do=findComment&comment=1709689 https://www.tanknet.org/index.php?/topic/38893-kiev-is-burning/&do=findComment&comment=1716586
futon Posted December 13, 2023 Author Posted December 13, 2023 On 12/13/2023 at 4:00 AM, rmgill said: How many Americans who were alive from that era have YOU talked to? There was a hate for Japan by my grandparents and great grand parents generation that is specifically related to Nanking, Bataan and other similar atrocities that were orgies of horror by Japanese Troops. I think you're downplaying it. US public opinion was more resolute for keeping Europeans out of South America than having a war with Japan. Granted, still higher than the sentiment for war sgainst Germany. However, within the year of 1941, the sentiment for war vs Japan goes up considerably after the oil embargo had been put in place. It suggests that negative feelings from the -one sided- news about atrocities in the Second Sino-Japanese War had worn off and had the US government adopted a policy different, such as recognizing the Wang Regime after its establishment in 1940, and thus as a result, Japan not getting closer to Germany, such negative sentiment towards Japan would have further gone done rather than rising further because it was the US givernment foreign policy's that would sustain and actively try to prop up the negative public opinion sentiment on Japan. Thus artifically inflated relative to atrocity news from 1937/1938. 1941 FEBRUARY 3 EUROPEAN WAR Interviewing Date 12/2-7/40 Survey #225-K Question #5 If you were asked to vote on the question of the United States entering the war against Germany and Italy, how would you vote — to go into the war or to stay out of the war? Go in.............................. 15% Stay out............................ 85 Nine per cent expressed no opinion. FEBRUARY 17 NEUTRALITY Special Survey If American ships with American crews are used to carry war materials to Britain and some of them are sunk by the Germans on the way over, would you be in favor of going to war against Germany? Yes................................ 27% No................................ 61 No opinion......................... 12 FEBRUARY 21 SOUTH AMERICA Special Survey If Brazil, Argentina, Chile, or any other Central or South American country is actually attacked by any European power, do you think the United States should fight to keep that European power out? Yes................................ 86% No................................ 14 Eight per cent expressed no opinion. FEBRUARY 24 JAPAN Interviewing Date 2/16-21/41 Survey #230-T Question #7a Do you think the United States should try to keep Japan from seizing the Dutch East Indies and Singapore? Yes................................ 56% No................................ 24 No opinion......................... 20 Interviewing Date 2/16-21/41 Survey #230-T Question #7b Do you think the United States should risk war with Japan, if necessary, in order to keep Japan from taking the Dutch East Indies and Singapore? Yes................................ 39% No................................ 46 No opinion......................... 15 MARCH 14 JAPAN Interviewing Date 2/16-21/41 Survey #230-T Question #7a Do you think the United States should risk war with Japan, if necessary, to keep Japan from taking the Dutch East Indies and Singapore? Yes................................40% No................................ 39 No opinion.........................21 APRIL 28 EUROPEAN WAR Interviewing Date 4/10-15/41 Survey #234-K Question #8a If you were asked to vote today on the question of the United States entering the war against Germany and Italy, how would you vote — to go into the war, or to stay out of the war? Go in.............................. 19% Stay out............................ 81 MAY 14 SOUTH AMERICA Special Survey If Brazil, Argentina, Chile, or any other Central or South American country is actually attacked by any European power, do you think the United States should fight to keep that European power out? Yes................................ 86% No................................ 14 Six per cent expressed no opinion. SEPTEMBER 7 JAPAN Interviewing Date 8/21-26/41 Survey #245-K Question #13 Should the United States take steps now to keep Japan from becoming more powerful, even if it means risking a war with Japan? Yes................................ 70% No................................ 18 No opinion......................... 12 NOVEMBER 14 JAPAN Interviewing Date 10/24-29/41 Survey #251-K Question #9 Should the United States take steps now to prevent Japan from becoming more powerful, even if this means risking a war with Japan? Yes................................ 64% No................................ 25 No opinion......................... 11 https://www.tanknet.org/index.php?/topic/47768-the-donkeys-worst-commanders-of-wwii-and-other-periods/&do=findComment&comment=1650301 https://ibiblio.org/pha/Gallup/Gallup 1941.htm
Detonable Posted December 14, 2023 Posted December 14, 2023 So on November, 1941 the US became more sympathetic to Japan, or is this just the poll data bouncing around due to small sample sizes? I wonder what was in the news between August and November, 1941?
Harold Jones Posted December 14, 2023 Posted December 14, 2023 You can go here and check it out https://chroniclingamerica.loc.gov/search/titles/ I took a look at one of the Alaska daily papers and it seems like August was mostly about the embargo and Japan's reaction, plus concerns that they would be invading Thailand, September's front page stories have some embargo stuff but contains more about Japanese complaints about the US sending Lend Lease shipments to Vladivostok. October shifts to Japan preparing for war, Tojo's takeover of the government and the inevitability of war with Japan. Really though the war in Europe got a lot more coverage. Japan only seems to get mentioned a few times a week and the only mentions of Japan and China are for things like US sentries being shot at and such.
rmgill Posted December 14, 2023 Posted December 14, 2023 Japan just needed Duranty or similar to white wash their atrocities.
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