T-80 MBT; production to re-start?

[Gavin-Phillips]

I didn't want to really drag the Ukraine thread off-topic too far so thought it best to ask it here.  Is re-starting production of T-80's (that is complete new build, not old hulls being refurbished/repaired) actually possible considering the length of time it has been since the last one was built (RedEffect video states this was in 1986)?  

Obviously I wouldn't be expecting anything to be produced prior to the T-80BVM upgrade "standard" but is it just possible that brand new T-80's could once again be rolling off the production lines?

Who would have thought it possible!

[Stefan Kotsch]

We'll have to be patient for some time. There are too many problems unresolved. So the result is still open.

[Dawes]

Has the turbine engine been improved to any degree?

[Stuart Galbraith]

They havent used a gas turbine since the early 90's when they stopped building them, so my guess is probably not.

Is this  a tacit admission if they are considering it that they went down the wrong road with the T90?

[Mike1158]

What is the cost of T-90 unit production versus the unit cost of a restarted T-80 line?  I would doubt there would be a huge difference tbh.  I just cannot see the point but there is a huge amount of stuff in this situationb that has little sense.

 

Do they have some data for the V12 diesel variant of the T-64 that suggests that engine could do the job?

[Stefan Kotsch]

del.

Edited November 18, 2023 by Stefan Kotsch

[Mighty_Zuk]

IMO they should just take whatever latest component of the T-90M and T-80BVM they use and can reliably make in either Russia or China, and put it into new hull and turret.

If they're already building something new from scratch, might as well use a more suitable form factor.

Alternatively, might be best for Russia to license-build Type 96 tanks.

[Gavin-Phillips]

1 hour ago, Mighty_Zuk said:

IMO they should just take whatever latest component of the T-90M and T-80BVM they use and can reliably make in either Russia or China, and put it into new hull and turret.

If they're already building something new from scratch, might as well use a more suitable form factor.

Alternatively, might be best for Russia to license-build Type 96 tanks.

I was thinking something similar myself, but combining them both in the same vehicle (I'm sure the Kremlin would prefer building the vehicle in their own factories though rather than someone else's?).  

Perhaps we'll see some of the designs that the Objekt 640 trialled all those years ago, it would have been nice to see how far that concept could have been taken.  However, how far can you get before you start hitting the costs on the level of the T-14 Armata MBT? 🤔 

The point made about upgrading the gas turbine engine is a valid one; does the 1250hp engine used in the T-80BVM/T-80U give an acceptable performance already?  

[Mighty_Zuk]

8 minutes ago, Gavin-Phillips said:

I was thinking something similar myself, but combining them both in the same vehicle (I'm sure the Kremlin would prefer building the vehicle in their own factories though rather than someone else's?).  

Perhaps we'll see some of the designs that the Objekt 640 trialled all those years ago, it would have been nice to see how far that concept could have been taken.  However, how far can you get before you start hitting the costs on the level of the T-14 Armata MBT? 🤔 

The point made about upgrading the gas turbine engine is a valid one; does the 1250hp engine used in the T-80BVM/T-80U give an acceptable performance already?  

T-14 development costs, as is for any new grand project, are mostly the sum of all new components' development. If you use a new hull and turret but all components are legacy, you're cutting down costs significantly.

[Gavin-Phillips]

45 minutes ago, Mighty_Zuk said:

T-14 development costs, as is for any new grand project, are mostly the sum of all new components' development. If you use a new hull and turret but all components are legacy, you're cutting down costs significantly.

That's a fair point but if all of the components are legacy ones (including the likes of FCS, APS and so on), wouldn't that degrade the upgrade potential of the new version of the T-80 (call it T-80X for arguments sake)?  Sure I suppose you could replace those systems later on I guess.

[Mighty_Zuk]

11 hours ago, Gavin-Phillips said:

That's a fair point but if all of the components are legacy ones (including the likes of FCS, APS and so on), wouldn't that degrade the upgrade potential of the new version of the T-80 (call it T-80X for arguments sake)?  Sure I suppose you could replace those systems later on I guess.

With a new form factor you can take advantage of new developments in crew survivability methods, and combine that with a lot of sanctions-free civilian tech.

Take the T-14 basic layout, create a hull to accept any legacy powerpack (T-14 hull specifically cannot), install the same gun and autoloader, install Chinese sights with some AI-ready computer (boosted 1st/2nd gen thermals > 3rd gen thermals), install some form of computer to define a generic architecture for the vehicle, and finally some automotive-grade cameras all around for situational awareness, and that's it. 

Could have already been done as a crash program by Russia based on any existing platform but okay. Maybe they don't think many tanks will live to see a direct fire engagement anyway.

[alejandro_]

On 11/17/2023 at 10:12 PM, Dawes said:

Has the turbine engine been improved to any degree?

Earlier T-80s were getting GTD-1250 in upgrades, which is more than enough for a T-80 weight. Russia still refurbishes T-80s so many components are in production, the issue is the turret, which used to be made in Mariupol in Soviet era. I don't think it makes any sense to buy components in China, as most parts are produced in Russia.
 

[Helmutkohl]

On 11/18/2023 at 5:14 AM, Gavin-Phillips said:

I didn't want to really drag the Ukraine thread off-topic too far so thought it best to ask it here.  Is re-starting production of T-80's (that is complete new build, not old hulls being refurbished/repaired) actually possible considering the length of time it has been since the last one was built (RedEffect video states this was in 1986)?  

Obviously I wouldn't be expecting anything to be produced prior to the T-80BVM upgrade "standard" but is it just possible that brand new T-80's could once again be rolling off the production lines?

Who would have thought it possible!

what is the rationale for restarting the T-80?

and isn't Ukraine still producing T-80 variants? at least before the war.

[old_goat]

I think there are two reasonable options for this:

1, high risk: Resurrect the Object 640. Overall, I think this would be the best after the failure of the Armata. The 640 had lots of innovative solutions, it would be a highly modern tank. Of course with proper electronics, and that would need to be sourced from China. 

2, low risk: Burlak project. It would be an upgrade over the T-90M, eliminating a major survivability shortcoming of the previous tanks with the bustle autoloader. 

But to be honest, I think the reality will be some el cheapo mutation of the T-80BVM, with welded turret... 

[alejandro_]

1 hour ago, old_goat said:

1, high risk: Resurrect the Object 640. Overall, I think this would be the best after the failure of the Armata. The 640 had lots of innovative solutions, it would be a highly modern tank. Of course with proper electronics, and that would need to be sourced from China. 

What Chinese electronics? Russia already has Sosna-U FCS which is considered very advanced. The only component I can think of is a thermal camera due to bottleneck of Catherine equivalents in Russia.

[old_goat]

11 minutes ago, alejandro_ said:

The only component I can think of is a thermal camera due to bottleneck of Catherine equivalents in Russia.

Yes, thats what I was thinking about mainly. And maybe some BMS, although thats not that important, since there isnt any working such system in russian army. But they would definitely benefit from having it. 

[Stefan Kotsch]

There is currently no new production of gas turbines for tanks. Only old ones are being overhauled. And only in small quantities. That is one of the big problems.

[seahawk]

But maybe the production line is still mothballed.

[Stuart Galbraith]

There wasnt afaik. After the last sales in the middle east, they pulled the plug.

[Stefan Kotsch]

And there is no alternative Russian diesel engine in sight either. However, a design in which the ammunition is isolated from the crew requires a more powerful engine. Because the mass of the tank will inevitably increase.

[Dawes]

If supplying engines is a problem, it would seem that restarting T-80 production is questionable at best.

[Gavin-Phillips]

Another update from RedEffect; he does mention the re-starting of T-80 production and being built from scratch although again...details are lacking.  There is some great footage of tank refurbishment and tank building as a whole as well as an explanation of rear area tank repair areas and major depot level rebuilds etc.

I've been lucky enough to see inside places similar to that some years ago but with H&S in the UK being what it is, its a pipe dream to do it these days sadly!  A fascinating industry (metal working in general that is, regardless of the end product) I think.

RedEffect - how do Russians cope with heavy tank losses?

[alejandro_]

On 11/19/2023 at 6:56 PM, old_goat said:

Yes, thats what I was thinking about mainly. And maybe some BMS, although thats not that important, since there isnt any working such system in russian army. But they would definitely benefit from having it. 

Russia already uses those systems, Andromeda in VDV and Constellation in the Army. 

Regarding the turbine, original manufacturer is in pretty good shape, having received contracts for RD-33/93 and VK-2500 turbines. If production tooling for GTD-1250 was kept (which seems to be the case) it would not horribly complex to move into production, IMO lack of workforce could play a bigger role than material/equipment issues. This week it was announced that key personnel in United Engine Corporation got a 30% pay rise to make positions more attractive. 

[old_goat]

5 hours ago, alejandro_ said:

Russia already uses those systems, Andromeda in VDV and Constellation in the Army. 

That is only on paper. Neither is in use, probably nobody is even able to use them. Also, barely any vehicle is able to be connected to these. T-72B3, T-90A, T-80BVM surely unable to. T-90M... Maybe? But Im not convinced. In this regard, China already surpassed Russia. 

[alejandro_]

1 hour ago, old_goat said:

That is only on paper. Neither is in use, probably nobody is even able to use them. Also, barely any vehicle is able to be connected to these. T-72B3, T-90A, T-80BVM surely unable to. T-90M... Maybe? But Im not convinced. In this regard, China already surpassed Russia. 

Or maybe not if no sources are provided. First reports of those systems being integrated in VDV tanks are from 2019. For the Army there are references before that, in 2014/2015 in upgraded T-80s. This was discussed in Tanknet by the way.