Iron Swords vs. Al-Aqsa Deluge - Israel/Palestinians (again)

[Stuart Galbraith]

Since we have so many post game quarterbacks here, what would YOU do if 1200 of your citizens had been raped, abducted or murdered? If you want to criticizes the israeli Government, as is you complete right, its not unreasonable to ask what you would have done so different?

If you arent willing to do that, it just sounds like another regularly scheduled edition of 'Evil Joo' (Tm) and frankly, its getting boring.

You dont like it, fine, lets hear how you would solve the problem.

[crazyinsane105]

23 minutes ago, Stuart Galbraith said:

Since we have so many post game quarterbacks here, what would YOU do if 1200 of your citizens had been raped, abducted or murdered? If you want to criticizes the israeli Government, as is you complete right, its not unreasonable to ask what you would have done so different?

If you arent willing to do that, it just sounds like another regularly scheduled edition of 'Evil Joo' (Tm) and frankly, its getting boring.

You dont like it, fine, lets hear how you would solve the problem.

I think the bigger issue is that the number of Palestinians who have died thus far, and the goals Israel has yet to achieve (eradicating Hamas, making sure some sort of friendly government takes over in Gaza, and release of all hostages) is what is tipping the scale against Israel. 

It has less to do with evil Joos and more people wondering ‘is this really the best Israel can do, is all the dead worth it?’ And its something you even questioned a few times 

[Perun]

No problem, we clearly can see that you obviously dont know how to handle this so I wiill teach you.

As we all know 76 years of kiling them because they killed ours have sold nothing but made more problems.

Some stupid plans of destroying this and that and killing as manny them as posibble didnt solve any problem but did made new ones.

Best solution is two state and compromise, and lot of compromise. No one would be hapoy at first but after some time all would see that two state was and is best solution.

Israel dont have strenght and capabilities to defeat Palestinians if they dont try to kill all of Palestinians and even then I doubt that neighbouring states and rest of world would agree to that. 

Palestinians dont have strenght and capabilities to defeat Israel.

So next and only left solution is peace and two state.

[WRW]

what would have happened if Hamas got on to an air base or Irin dome site?

[Stuart Galbraith]

47 minutes ago, crazyinsane105 said:

I think the bigger issue is that the number of Palestinians who have died thus far, and the goals Israel has yet to achieve (eradicating Hamas, making sure some sort of friendly government takes over in Gaza, and release of all hostages) is what is tipping the scale against Israel. 

It has less to do with evil Joos and more people wondering ‘is this really the best Israel can do, is all the dead worth it?’ And its something you even questioned a few times 

Its like I think I said long ago, Israel would be forgiven if it was successful. If its unsuccessful? Not so much. So its the sunk costs fallacy. They want to keep bombing because they started bombing. We cant criticize. The bomber mafia in WW2 continued bombing long after it effectively prosecuted the war, for much the same reason. They couldnt very well stand down whilst there was troops in the field.

My own view, the bombing policy was sound as long as there was an underlying policy to negotiate the hostages back. The first tranche proved it was a policy that could work. The problem has been since those talks broke down, there seems to be an unwilligness to change tack to something more nuanced that might work to get the rest out. But that doesnt invalidate the initial policy to bomb, and to be honest, some here were complaining about that policy right from the start anyway.

Once again, it comes down to the 'well what would you have done instead?' Because Im convinced that whilst we might criticize how Israel has been undertaking that policy, there would be remarkably few Western Governments faced with the same threat, that would not have done pretty much the same thing.

34 minutes ago, Perun said:

No problem, we clearly can see that you obviously dont know how to handle this so I wiill teach you.

As we all know 76 years of kiling them because they killed ours have sold nothing but made more problems.

Some stupid plans of destroying this and that and killing as manny them as posibble didnt solve any problem but did made new ones.

Best solution is two state and compromise, and lot of compromise. No one would be hapoy at first but after some time all would see that two state was and is best solution.

Israel dont have strenght and capabilities to defeat Palestinians if they dont try to kill all of Palestinians and even then I doubt that neighbouring states and rest of world would agree to that. 

Palestinians dont have strenght and capabilities to defeat Israel.

So next and only left solution is peace and two state.

 

You should probably known my Grandfather was in Palestine after spending 6 years in WW2, doing entirely unvoluntary  peacekeeping, between one group of  zealots and another, so thanks, not needing any lectures on the Holy Land here, thanks very much.

I dont dispute the perfect justice of a two state solution. i dispute that anyone in Palestine and Israel still believes in it, including many of thosse that fought for it. I believe its going to be a one nation state this time, and we will have to see how the extremists on both sides deal with that one.

Once again, how do you resolve getting back 130 hostages without firing a shot, without it looking like surrender and inviting more of the same? Gaza had to be punished. You might not like that, I might not like how its done, but that it had to be done was inevitable. Hamas forced them to do it by not handing their people back. TBH I think its time to transition towards ending the war. Then Israel can start doing what it does best, covert assassinations, and start rubbing out the rest of Hamas when they get their people back home. But that doesnt mean that israel starting bombing wasnt justified and it didnt work. It did. And uncomfortably, I still have not heard any alternative solutions to a wholly intractable problem.

Edited April 9 by Stuart Galbraith

[Perun]

Are you suggesting that, after 76 years of wars, best solution is not to make peace but to continue killing each others. Is that what are you saying

[crazyinsane105]

4 minutes ago, Perun said:

Are you suggesting that, after 76 years of wars, best solution is not to make peace but to continue killing each others. Is that what are you saying

I think he’s suggesting, one nation in which both Palestinians and Israelis live with each other. Two state solution is long gone unfortunately 

How one state works is anyone’s guess, but it can’t just be a bigger version of West Bank

[glenn239]

2 hours ago, Stuart Galbraith said:

Since we have so many post game quarterbacks here, what would YOU do if 1200 of your citizens had been raped, abducted or murdered? If you want to criticizes the israeli Government, as is you complete right, its not unreasonable to ask what you would have done so different?

If you arent willing to do that, it just sounds like another regularly scheduled edition of 'Evil Joo' (Tm) and frankly, its getting boring.

You dont like it, fine, lets hear how you would solve the problem.

Literally everyone on this site knows that I called this shit show five years ago, idenfitied Gaza and Hamas as the most crucial unresolved security threat to Israel,  and initiated a discussion on solutions back then. 

 

[sunday]

5 minutes ago, crazyinsane105 said:

I think he’s suggesting, one nation in which both Palestinians and Israelis live with each other. Two state solution is long gone unfortunately 

How one state works is anyone’s guess, but it can’t just be a bigger version of West Bank

I am afraid that demographics would lead to another national situation like South Africa or Zimbabwe post-Apartheid.

[glenn239]

6 minutes ago, crazyinsane105 said:

I think he’s suggesting, one nation in which both Palestinians and Israelis live with each other. Two state solution is long gone unfortunately 

How one state works is anyone’s guess, but it can’t just be a bigger version of West Bank

The problem is that NATO's window for decision is closing.  The best time to act is now.  Time is not on the West's side.

[Stuart Galbraith]

22 minutes ago, crazyinsane105 said:

I think he’s suggesting, one nation in which both Palestinians and Israelis live with each other. Two state solution is long gone unfortunately 

How one state works is anyone’s guess, but it can’t just be a bigger version of West Bank

Thats exactly what im suggesting. And whilst I fully accept the 2 state solution was the ideal solution, thats now gone, forever. You only have to listen to Israelis saying it. And I doubt the Palestinians feel any different after being bombed.

The question is how you create a Zionist Jihadist state. Although to be fair, it cant be any more difficult than creating 2 states, which has proven utterly impossible.

Edited April 9 by Stuart Galbraith

[Stuart Galbraith]

25 minutes ago, Perun said:

Are you suggesting that, after 76 years of wars, best solution is not to make peace but to continue killing each others. Is that what are you saying

 

[Mighty_Zuk]

1 hour ago, Stuart Galbraith said:

My own view, the bombing policy was sound as long as there was an underlying policy to negotiate the hostages back. The first tranche proved it was a policy that could work. The problem has been since those talks broke down, there seems to be an unwilligness to change tack to something more nuanced that might work to get the rest out. But that doesnt invalidate the initial policy to bomb, and to be honest, some here were complaining about that policy right from the start anyway.

Israel hasn't really bombed Gaza in well over a month. Only a few precision strikes and ground raids here and there.

3 hours ago, glenn239 said:

The basic problem is that the kill ratio stands at about 33,000 to 1,400, and most of the world can count. 

Lol no.

2 hours ago, crazyinsane105 said:

I think the bigger issue is that the number of Palestinians who have died thus far, and the goals Israel has yet to achieve (eradicating Hamas, making sure some sort of friendly government takes over in Gaza, and release of all hostages) is what is tipping the scale against Israel. 

It has less to do with evil Joos and more people wondering ‘is this really the best Israel can do, is all the dead worth it?’ And its something you even questioned a few times 

Palestinians are actually reacting really well to the casualties, showing legitimate fear of war with Israel.

20 minutes ago, glenn239 said:

Literally everyone on this site knows that I called this shit show five years ago, idenfitied Gaza and Hamas as the most crucial unresolved security threat to Israel,  and initiated a discussion on solutions back then. 

Saying Hamas is a problem and suggesting a NATO intervention - does not earn you cookie points.

Within 3 days NATO would condemn itself for committing genocide (their civilian to military ratio would inevitably be much, much, much higher than Israel's), spank itself real hard, then run out of Gaza like Beirut.

[txtree99]

It is a fantasy to believe NATO would get involved in current Israel Palestine conflict.  

[Stuart Galbraith]

We will see Russian peacekeeping  forces in Gaza, long before NATO gets there.

Personally I like the Tom Clancy solution,  where Palestine is patrolled by the Vaticans Swiss Guard. It wouldn't work, but at least it would look magnificent.

[Mighty_Zuk]

1 hour ago, Stuart Galbraith said:

Thats exactly what im suggesting. And whilst I fully accept the 2 state solution was the ideal solution, thats now gone, forever. You only have to listen to Israelis saying it. And I doubt the Palestinians feel any different after being bombed.

I know these were the two most popular like 2 decades ago but if a 2 state solution doesn't seem feasible, then at that point a 1 state solution is long gone.

If anything, this war has only increased the likelihood of a 2 state solution.

[Mighty_Zuk]

Preparations reportedly being made for an operation in Rafah:

 

[Perun]

Spanish Prime Minister Pedro Sánchez said Saturday that he will propose that Spain’s parliament recognizes a Palestinian state.

“I will propose granting Spain’s recognition to the Palestinian state,” Sánchez said. “I do this out of moral conviction, for a just cause and because it is the only way that the two states, Israel and Palestine, can live together in peace.”

Sánchez added his voice to a chorus of other European leaders and government officials who have said that they could support a two-state solution in the Middle East as international frustration grows with Israel’s actions in the Palestinian territories.

French President Emmanuel Macron said last month that it’s not “taboo” for France to recognize a Palestinian state. British Foreign Minister David Cameron said that the United Kingdom could officially recognize a Palestinian state after a cease-fire in the Israel-Hamas war.

https://apnews.com/article/spain-prime-minister-proposal-recognize-palestinian-state-b4725cdaef60d085ffb63f162fbdc410

[sunday]

27 minutes ago, Perun said:

Spanish Prime Minister Pedro Sánchez

Worst kind of human weasel ever.

[crazyinsane105]

3 hours ago, sunday said:

I am afraid that demographics would lead to another national situation like South Africa or Zimbabwe post-Apartheid.

Agreed. Only way forward is to instill some type of protection for whoever becomes a minority. That and an international coalition of neutral countries who can provide some type of security from outside countries looking to take advantage 

[glenn239]

5 hours ago, Mighty_Zuk said:

Saying Hamas is a problem and suggesting a NATO intervention - does not earn you cookie points.

In that conversation, you badly underestimated the danger and the problem back then, and then, 1,400 of your people got killed because people in your government were as complacent and arrogant as you were.   

[glenn239]

5 hours ago, txtree99 said:

It is a fantasy to believe NATO would get involved in current Israel Palestine conflict.  

On the contrary.  Israel is on the cusp of a regional war it cannot win.  If that happens, the US will have to intervene, and with the US goes NATO. 

[txtree99]

28 minutes ago, glenn239 said:

On the contrary.  Israel is on the cusp of a regional war it cannot win.  If that happens, the US will have to intervene, and with the US goes NATO. 

You saying this doesn’t mean that it is going to happen.  

[Stuart Galbraith]

8 hours ago, glenn239 said:

On the contrary.  Israel is on the cusp of a regional war it cannot win.  If that happens, the US will have to intervene, and with the US goes NATO. 

Nice thing about having nuclear weapons, they have much win, particularly against opponents that dont have any. And dont think for an instant they wouldnt.

The truth is, the arabs want to be on Israels side to balance Iran, because they dont have any. They are not going to go to war with Israel for a bunch of troublemakers they usually dont give a stuff about. And public opinion is not enough to sway them. Syria might, except Assad has more than enought to do to cling to power.

As far as Gaza, Israel is doomed to win. They have more manpower, they have more firepower. The only question is the political cost after they take Rafah. As Bibi will swiftly then depart, much of the opprobium will attach itself to him, and it will be business as usual.

In short, I believe you are wrong on so many levels, its like watching a multi story car park of wrongness, parked full of Ford Pinto's, Ford Edsels and Deloreans. Alright, maybe a withhold on the Deloreans, because I like them.

[Mighty_Zuk]

8 hours ago, glenn239 said:

In that conversation, you badly underestimated the danger and the problem back then, and then, 1,400 of your people got killed because people in your government were as complacent and arrogant as you were.   

I have never underestimated them. But I also never suggested in a serious manner solutions that were simply far too unrealistic.

Hamas never was and never will be an existential threat. But it is a threat which is unsustainable for us to let fester on our borders. 

8 hours ago, glenn239 said:

On the contrary.  Israel is on the cusp of a regional war it cannot win.  If that happens, the US will have to intervene, and with the US goes NATO. 

That's not how NATO works, and I find it hard to believe that any NATO member, even the US, would find it politically feasible to seriously intervene. 

Even if the US were to intervene, any other NATO member would not last there more than a week, and that's a generous assumption.