Rob Veenendaal Posted October 9, 2023 Posted October 9, 2023 I note a lot of talk about occupying Gaza, which certainly means a high death toll for both sides. There is may be another option: Israel mobilised - Best they can do in these uncertain times Total blockade of Gaza - One certain way to put pressure on Hamas Here is my thinking: Hamas attacked Israel in a beastly way > A price has to be paid Israel has to be careful not to take land from Hamas... What they can do is reinforce the current border, not on Israeli side, but on Hamas side. Think about a 1 km wide zone. First warn them to get out and one day later start flattening all buildings and burn all growth in that zone with heavy artillery. Then go Russian style by dropping a gigantic shitload of mines into the area and noting that anyone seen in the area will be shot. No worries about fencing the area off. Hamas can do it themselves if they want to live. This can be done without entering the zone. Next step is making sure that for every hostage killed/harmed/not released in say one month, that zone will be expanded by say 50 meters. That means if all the hostages are killed all people in Gaza need to go for a swim. At least it will become a very densely populated area. Their choice how they want to live there.
Burncycle360 Posted October 9, 2023 Posted October 9, 2023 The question is this: would you rather stop this now, rip that bandaid off with short term violence, or continue to show the same tolerance that led to just more of this, including more overall deaths but spread out over sufficient timescales as to make them palatable? alternatively, do you want your childrens children to be beheaded? Or is it better to say "I don't condone the actions of my grandfather but acknowledge the peace and stability we live in was a consequence of it"
Stuart Galbraith Posted October 9, 2023 Posted October 9, 2023 5 minutes ago, crazyinsane105 said: Israel wanted to give back Gaza to Egypt after ‘73,and they were like ‘nope, you keep it!’ 😂 Yeah, I guess they were determined to come out ahead somehow.
crazyinsane105 Posted October 9, 2023 Posted October 9, 2023 38 minutes ago, lucklucky said: It is a death cult, Hamas is rewarded by the Media and Palestinians "supporters" if their own people is killed. Israel is not. Hamas has regional backing and is warmly accepted by the Russians as well (leader of Hamas visited Lavrov back in September..) Beyond a few other Islamic outfits in Gaza who Israel views as even worse than Hamas, there isn’t another option for governance. Especially since Hamas controls all the money and has all the guns.
rmgill Posted October 9, 2023 Posted October 9, 2023 During WWII, If Germany had threatened to execute British and French POWs, would Britain have negotiated?
Burncycle360 Posted October 9, 2023 Posted October 9, 2023 (edited) 6 minutes ago, Rob Veenendaal said: I note a lot of talk about occupying Gaza, which certainly means a high death toll for both sides There is may be another option: Israel mobilised - Best they can do in these uncertain times Total blockade of Gaza - One certain way to put pressure on Hamas Total blockade is what Hamas wants. Israel is granted a (very) brief window of the world going "yikes, we're distancing ourselves from Hamas" but next week when the world moves on its back to "look at their plight you monsters" Longer timespans favor Hamas's PR campaign Edited October 9, 2023 by Burncycle360
Stuart Galbraith Posted October 9, 2023 Posted October 9, 2023 Not this time. And even time they behead an Israeli woman, or even child, its just going to put the Palestinian s on the same page as ISIS.
seahawk Posted October 9, 2023 Posted October 9, 2023 1 minute ago, Stuart Galbraith said: Not this time. And even time they behead an Israeli woman, or even child, its just going to put the Palestinian s on the same page as ISIS. Only in the West.
crazyinsane105 Posted October 9, 2023 Posted October 9, 2023 (edited) 32 minutes ago, Josh said: I don't see how Israel could be overrun given its military advantage. As shocking and relatively successful as the most recent attack was for Hamas, they are no where near actually removing the state of Israel or even critically disabling its military. I've avoided this thread because I don't have any worthwhile opinions or ideas as to how to handle this catastrophic situation nor any unique insight as to how we arrived here. But the US, let alone NATO, are never involving themselves in the occupied territories. Israel will continue to survive, though how it ultimately handles the Gaza dilemma I do not known. There are no good options politically or militarily. Had another Arab country joined the fight two days ago, along with Hezbullah, Israel would be in a very bad position and its survival would indeed be questioned. But that didn’t happen, and beyond a few skirmishes in the north of Israel, there doesn’t seem to be any involvement by an outside party. So all in all, this isn’t an existential threat to Israel in any way. I don’t think the Palestinians were expecting outside help though. They wanted to show to the world they can still strike a bloody nose to Israel, and that they did. They have also managed to end the peace talks between the US and Saudi. They have a crap load of hostages. Overall they’ve accomplished their short term objectives, as brutal as they may be. Very likely they are prepared to fight to the bitter end, as they have no choice. Whether that end actually happens (unlike in 2008 when Israel called it off), that’s to be seen. Beyond that, there are no good answers to a conflict that’s been on and off for 1400 years plus. I no longer take a side on this slug fest. Regardless who will come victorious out of this, there will always be a fight over the Holy Land, probably till the end of days as we know it. Edited October 9, 2023 by crazyinsane105
lucklucky Posted October 9, 2023 Posted October 9, 2023 (edited) 44 minutes ago, crazyinsane105 said: I think the international community gave a pass to rocket strikes simply because Hamas didn’t have the capacity to target them accurately. But these events past few days…Hamas has a clear choice on who to kill. They could have simply limited the operation to military outposts and not attempt to target a single civilian. Instead they went on a murdering rampage and didn’t even try to hide it. Because Hamas have an Islamic Totalitarian culture, they would have no problem murdering other Palestinians. Edited October 9, 2023 by lucklucky
Burncycle360 Posted October 9, 2023 Posted October 9, 2023 4 minutes ago, seahawk said: Only in the West. Only for half of the west
lucklucky Posted October 9, 2023 Posted October 9, 2023 (edited) 12 minutes ago, crazyinsane105 said: Hamas has regional backing and is warmly accepted by the Russians as well (leader of Hamas visited Lavrov back in September..) Beyond a few other Islamic outfits in Gaza who Israel views as even worse than Hamas, there isn’t another option for governance. Especially since Hamas controls all the money and has all the guns. Hamas needs to be destroyed but you only get that destroying Iranian Islamic Regime. But the first thing that needs to be destroyed is Western Marxism I very much expect a world civil war of sorts for the future because Western will not be destroyed. Edited October 9, 2023 by lucklucky
Stuart Galbraith Posted October 9, 2023 Posted October 9, 2023 4 minutes ago, seahawk said: Only in the West. Not all Arabs are like that. Yes, some will lap it up I'm sure. Most I believe won't.
Burncycle360 Posted October 9, 2023 Posted October 9, 2023 (edited) 3 minutes ago, lucklucky said: Because Hamas have an Islamic Totalitarian culture, they would have no problem murdering other Palestinians. Where are the militant moderates when you need them Edited October 9, 2023 by Burncycle360
crazyinsane105 Posted October 9, 2023 Posted October 9, 2023 2 minutes ago, lucklucky said: Because Hamas have an Islamic Totalitarian culture, they would have no problem murdering other Palestinians. Muslims kill other Muslims most of the time. Nothing new here.
seahawk Posted October 9, 2023 Posted October 9, 2023 1 minute ago, Stuart Galbraith said: Not all Arabs are like that. Yes, some will lap it up I'm sure. Most I believe won't. Nice but then you had celebrations in Berlin about the successful killing of Jews and then you have the Iranian government going beyond full retard. https://twitter.com/khamenei_ir/status/1710752170096701778?ref_src=twsrc^tfw|twcamp^tweetembed|twterm^1710752170096701778|twgr^bcf27232e7656ef69160ed8deccca055d440642d|twcon^s1_c10&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.tanknet.org%2Findex.php%3Fapp%3Dcoremodule%3Dsystemcontroller%3Dembedurl%3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Ftwitter.com%2Fkhamenei_ir%2Fstatus%2F1710752170096701778
Stuart Galbraith Posted October 9, 2023 Posted October 9, 2023 Just now, lucklucky said: Hamas needs to be destroyed but you only get that destroying Iranian Islamic Regime. And you are right, but short of nuking it or invading it, I know no way that can be achieved. Destroy all their oil infrastructure to deprive them of revenue, that might work. Might cause us a few problems as well.
lucklucky Posted October 9, 2023 Posted October 9, 2023 8 minutes ago, seahawk said: Only in the West. Disagree. There are many people around the world that are repulsed by it. And there are many people in West that applause it. All extreme left in West have no problems with it, they would have made the same to their own country people that would resist a Marxist take over.
Stuart Galbraith Posted October 9, 2023 Posted October 9, 2023 1 minute ago, seahawk said: Nice but then you had celebrations in Berlin about the successful killing of Jews and then you have the Iranian government going beyond full retard. https://twitter.com/khamenei_ir/status/1710752170096701778?ref_src=twsrc^tfw|twcamp^tweetembed|twterm^1710752170096701778|twgr^bcf27232e7656ef69160ed8deccca055d440642d|twcon^s1_c10&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.tanknet.org%2Findex.php%3Fapp%3Dcoremodule%3Dsystemcontroller%3Dembedurl%3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Ftwitter.com%2Fkhamenei_ir%2Fstatus%2F1710752170096701778 Had them here, and in New York. Celebrations among the Arab world are distinctly muted however.
Josh Posted October 9, 2023 Posted October 9, 2023 7 minutes ago, crazyinsane105 said: Had another Arab country joined the fight two days ago, along with Hezbullah, Israel would be in a very bad position and its survival would indeed be questioned. What Arab country would that be? Egypt? Jordan? Syria? There is no Arab country capable and willing of such, plus they were caught by the same surprise Israel was. I will grant you Hezbollah missed the best military opportunity it will ever have, though I would argue they too are hardly able to open an offensive overnight either. And what would they have gained other than giving Israel the blankest check possible to do to Lebanon what they are doing to Gaza? I've no idea what happens now. If Hamas is deliberately trying to drag Iran into this with them, then they are burning one of their most important suppliers in the process. I think they consider this to be an existential fight. They would be stupid to mount this effort unless they conscious of it being their last stand.
Stuart Galbraith Posted October 9, 2023 Posted October 9, 2023 6 minutes ago, Burncycle360 said: Where are the militant moderates when you need them
Yama Posted October 9, 2023 Posted October 9, 2023 23 minutes ago, crazyinsane105 said: Israel wanted to give back Gaza to Egypt after ‘73,and they were like ‘nope, you keep it!’ 😂 Gaza was never part of Egypt, so I don't think there was ever a prospect of 'giving it back'.
seahawk Posted October 9, 2023 Posted October 9, 2023 1 minute ago, lucklucky said: Disagree. There are many people around the world that are repulsed by it. And there are many people in West that applause it. All extreme left in West have no problems with it, they would have made the same to their own country people that would resist a Marxist take over. Get over your "evil left" thinking. Religious extremism does not know left or right. And yes, some leftist would be happy to see the "oppressor" being killed, but at least in Europe you find very few saying this after the videos of the murdering.
Murph Posted October 9, 2023 Posted October 9, 2023 If you kill enough of them, even the Pals might get the message, that they need to stop.
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