Stuart Galbraith Posted October 9, 2023 Posted October 9, 2023 21st century version of Hadrians wall, when you get down to it. Anyone still thinking the Israelis may have deserved this should reflect on the fate of Thai agricultural workers who fell into Hamas hands. Warning, pretty graphic. https://twitter.com/EliotHiggins/status/1711420845879402756?t=RAmWnTxtRAKburLm9As24A&s=19
Stuart Galbraith Posted October 9, 2023 Posted October 9, 2023 And here it is, what we were expecting.
Stuart Galbraith Posted October 9, 2023 Posted October 9, 2023 This is horrific. This is more than we lost in Coventry in 1940.
Burncycle360 Posted October 9, 2023 Posted October 9, 2023 (edited) By "targets civilians" of course they mean retaliate against rockets launchings and known strongholds located in civilian areas such thst civilian casualties are inevitable. This is why there is no moral equivalent to civilians killed by Israel and those killed by hamas. Hamas is deliberately using them as shields and deliberately targeting civilians in Israel, Israel is trying to target militants posing as and hiding among civilians. Edited October 9, 2023 by Burncycle360
Burncycle360 Posted October 9, 2023 Posted October 9, 2023 46 minutes ago, Strannik said: A part of my point, which flew high over your head, exactly Integration is the "convert" part of convert or die. Stop advocating for the genocide of jews or aiding those who do, and you are by definition no longer the problem.
lucklucky Posted October 9, 2023 Posted October 9, 2023 (edited) It is a death cult, Hamas is rewarded by the Media and Palestinians "supporters" if their own people is killed. Israel is not. Edited October 9, 2023 by lucklucky
crazyinsane105 Posted October 9, 2023 Posted October 9, 2023 10 minutes ago, Stuart Galbraith said: This is horrific. This is more than we lost in Coventry in 1940. This includes military or no? Just curious
Burncycle360 Posted October 9, 2023 Posted October 9, 2023 2 minutes ago, lucklucky said: It is a death cult, Hamas is rewarded by the Media and Palestinians "supporters" if their own people is killed. Israel is not. Same phenomenon as the left vs center and right culture war stuff going on in the west, just in the more advanced stages. Sun tzu stuff, they know how to milk the PR side to gain popular support.
Stuart Galbraith Posted October 9, 2023 Posted October 9, 2023 Well it says Residents, I assume that's sans military. I'll look and see if there is a better breakdown.
lucklucky Posted October 9, 2023 Posted October 9, 2023 At meta level Palestinian conflict is not a conflict in Palestine it is a conflict within West. What is being discussed is what the West will be, that is always what is being discussed. Side note: Just to remind how the media, ONG , activists reacted to ISIS murderers: There were no protests.
crazyinsane105 Posted October 9, 2023 Posted October 9, 2023 10 minutes ago, Burncycle360 said: By "targets civilians" of course they mean retaliate against rockets launchings and known strongholds located in civilian areas such thst civilian casualties are inevitable. This is why there is no moral equivalent to civilians killed by Israel and those killed by hamas. Hamas is deliberately using them as shields and deliberately targeting civilians in Israel, Israel is trying to target militants posing as and hiding among civilians. I think the international community gave a pass to rocket strikes simply because Hamas didn’t have the capacity to target them accurately. But these events past few days…Hamas has a clear choice on who to kill. They could have simply limited the operation to military outposts and not attempt to target a single civilian. Instead they went on a murdering rampage and didn’t even try to hide it.
rmgill Posted October 9, 2023 Posted October 9, 2023 Why if the Hamas types are directly going after civilians with deliberate action is this not demanding a Curtis Lemay level response by the Isrelis?
Stuart Galbraith Posted October 9, 2023 Posted October 9, 2023 It was an orgy of murder, by people clearly enjoying themselves. OK, they were brutalised, I get that. But I don't care in the same way Nazis once claimed they were brutalised. They want to put themselves outside the civilised world, that's absolutely fine. It just makes it easier. These are Reuters figures from 18 hours ago claims 1100 dead. I presume that something like 150 would be services personnel, but that's just a guess. https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/israeli-forces-clash-with-hamas-gunmen-after-hundreds-killed-2023-10-08/
Stuart Galbraith Posted October 9, 2023 Posted October 9, 2023 Just now, rmgill said: Why if the Hamas types are directly going after civilians with deliberate action is this not demanding a Curtis Lemay level response by the Isrelis? Because its going to kill the hostages too. Its a little early in the day to give up on them.
Burncycle360 Posted October 9, 2023 Posted October 9, 2023 5 minutes ago, crazyinsane105 said: I think the international community gave a pass to rocket strikes simply because Hamas didn’t have the capacity to target them accurately. But these events past few days…Hamas has a clear choice on who to kill. They could have simply limited the operation to military outposts and not attempt to target a single civilian. Instead they went on a murdering rampage and didn’t even try to hide it. People gave them a pass because they're ideologues downplaying or dismissing wrongdoing for their favored side, under the guise of "well they can't target them accurately" Maybe some people see it now after their latest actions, but I doubt it, most just double down. We see this in the progressive left in the west too, collectivists function such that a protected group can do no wrong and a group deemed the oppressor can do no right.
Josh Posted October 9, 2023 Posted October 9, 2023 2 hours ago, glenn239 said: If trends continue as they are going, Israel will eventually be overrun. That does not strike me as a solution to anything, even given all the ways in which Israel has acted arrogantly and violently in its own region. Left to its own devices Israel will go down to total defeat. Only the US can intervene in a way that brings security to Palestine. I don't see how Israel could be overrun given its military advantage. As shocking and relatively successful as the most recent attack was for Hamas, they are no where near actually removing the state of Israel or even critically disabling its military. I've avoided this thread because I don't have any worthwhile opinions or ideas as to how to handle this catastrophic situation nor any unique insight as to how we arrived here. But the US, let alone NATO, are never involving themselves in the occupied territories. Israel will continue to survive, though how it ultimately handles the Gaza dilemma I do not known. There are no good options politically or militarily.
rmgill Posted October 9, 2023 Posted October 9, 2023 2 minutes ago, Stuart Galbraith said: Because its going to kill the hostages too. Its a little early in the day to give up on them. How do they get the hostages back? Is Hamas going to stop targeting civilians and especially women and children? Is there way to get them back?
Burncycle360 Posted October 9, 2023 Posted October 9, 2023 (edited) Hostages are already dead. Extinction was their goal from the start. Israel could be be morally forgiven for considering very fighting aged male in Gaza who isn't actively fighting Hamas fair game. Edited October 9, 2023 by Burncycle360
Stuart Galbraith Posted October 9, 2023 Posted October 9, 2023 1 minute ago, rmgill said: How do they get the hostages back? Is Hamas going to stop targeting civilians and especially women and children? Is there way to get them back? Ransom I think. Only way to do it is detain enough Gazans, and hope at some point they will want to swap. If I'm honest, no I don't believe it's going to work. But they have to try. Some I suspect will make it, if only because the captors chicken out.
rmgill Posted October 9, 2023 Posted October 9, 2023 1 minute ago, Stuart Galbraith said: Ransom I think. Only way to do it is detain enough Gazans, and hope at some point they will want to swap. If I'm honest, no I don't believe it's going to work. But they have to try. Some I suspect will make it, if only because the captors chicken out. Hamas DELIBERATELY works to make their own civilians direct targets and casualties. I don't think you realize that the situation doesn't work.
Stuart Galbraith Posted October 9, 2023 Posted October 9, 2023 8 minutes ago, Josh said: I don't see how Israel could be overrun given its military advantage. As shocking and relatively successful as the most recent attack was for Hamas, they are no where near actually removing the state of Israel or even critically disabling its military. I've avoided this thread because I don't have any worthwhile opinions or ideas as to how to handle this catastrophic situation nor any unique insight as to how we arrived here. But the US, let alone NATO, are never involving themselves in the occupied territories. Israel will continue to survive, though how it ultimately handles the Gaza dilemma I do not known. There are no good options politically or militarily. One Israeli historian claims the Israeli Government offered the Gaza strip to the British Government as a naval base, to replace Alexandria. Dear God, we dodged a bullet there...
crazyinsane105 Posted October 9, 2023 Posted October 9, 2023 7 minutes ago, rmgill said: How do they get the hostages back? Is Hamas going to stop targeting civilians and especially women and children? Is there way to get them back? Israel has always engaged in lopsided prisoner deals. 6 minutes ago, Burncycle360 said: Hostages are already dead. Extinction was their goal from the start. Every fighting aged male in Gaza who isn't actively fighting Hamas is fair game. I mean lets be fair, drop leaflets explaining what is about to happen first... Easy for you to say. But Israel still values the life of every single one of its citizens more than destruction of its enemies, and Hamas knows this.
Strannik Posted October 9, 2023 Posted October 9, 2023 32 minutes ago, Burncycle360 said: Integration is the "convert" part of convert or die. Stop advocating for the genocide of jews or aiding those who do, and you are by definition no longer the problem. What an idiotic non-sequitur.
crazyinsane105 Posted October 9, 2023 Posted October 9, 2023 7 minutes ago, Stuart Galbraith said: One Israeli historian claims the Israeli Government offered the Gaza strip to the British Government as a naval base, to replace Alexandria. Dear God, we dodged a bullet there... Israel wanted to give back Gaza to Egypt after ‘73,and they were like ‘nope, you keep it!’ 😂
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