DB Posted October 9, 2023 Posted October 9, 2023 On 10/8/2023 at 10:22 AM, Samsa said: Pardon the ignorant question, but can anyone with a better understanding of that conflict summarize what the purpose of such an attack could be? I somewhat understand the general missile attacks/bombings/attacks on the IDF. That's unfortunately par of the course, doesn't raise many international eyebrows and keeps the Israelis on edge. This style of attack with very clear, deliberate and self publicized atrocities against civilians (and POWs i think(?)) don't help their cause at all. And despite the unprecedented success against the IDF they don't really have any prospect of mitarily defeating Isreal once they start to actually fight back. Sure they sow some chaos but precedents like that can also rally a country to a cause. I know little about the intricacies of that conflict, so maybe I miss the obvious... It's a good question. So, why would Hamas organise and execute an attack that will result in a massive escalatory response from Israel and cause thousands if not tens of thousands of deaths amongst the people who support it? My belief is that Hamas has no future except in conflict. Without the Palestinians and Israelis being at each others throats, they have no purpose and their leaders will have no power. One could perhaps say the same about Netanyahu at this point. Regardless of what happens over the next few weeks and months, it happened on his watch and he'll need to shift blame flawlessly to the protest movement to survive this.
glenn239 Posted October 9, 2023 Posted October 9, 2023 40 minutes ago, Strannik said: Why would you wish this on US? Being ally doesn't mean doing ALL the dirty work for them. If trends continue as they are going, Israel will eventually be overrun. That does not strike me as a solution to anything, even given all the ways in which Israel has acted arrogantly and violently in its own region. Left to its own devices Israel will go down to total defeat. Only the US can intervene in a way that brings security to Palestine.
glenn239 Posted October 9, 2023 Posted October 9, 2023 36 minutes ago, crazyinsane105 said: Re occupying Gaza, an area that has an underground city along with a little over 2 million residents above ground, alongside an insurgency that is armed with drones, ATGMs and advanced RPGs, etc. is not something that Israel is looking forward to do. And quite frankly I don’t blame them. The occupation of Gaza should be a solely Israeli task? What do you think the US-Israeli alliance is?
glenn239 Posted October 9, 2023 Posted October 9, 2023 38 minutes ago, Mighty_Zuk said: Occupying Gaza is much easier to do than many realize. It's keeping it occupied that's difficult and will take a daily toll, one that many Israelis believe is a price too high. When we discussed the problem of Hamas and Gaza about five years ago, you will recall that I thought the occupation of Gaza should be a NATO, not a solely Israeli, mission. I still think that to be the case, for the reasons you outline - it will take American resources to root out the generational poison of Hamas in Gaza and get that city normalized and back on its feet.
sunday Posted October 9, 2023 Posted October 9, 2023 (edited) 6 minutes ago, glenn239 said: The occupation of Gaza should be a solely Israeli task? What do you think the US-Israeli alliance is? USA-Israel alliance seems to be on par with the USA-Egypt, or the former USA-Afganistan alliance. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Major_non-NATO_ally Edited to add: I think Israel is outside the territorial scope of NATO. Edited October 9, 2023 by sunday
urbanoid Posted October 9, 2023 Posted October 9, 2023 6 minutes ago, glenn239 said: The occupation of Gaza should be a solely Israeli task? What do you think the US-Israeli alliance is? There should be no occupation of Gaza, it's unsustainable and a political nightmare, for either Israel or the US.
DKTanker Posted October 9, 2023 Posted October 9, 2023 28 minutes ago, lucklucky said: While you are also correct the journalist promoted death cult started with Marxist Palestinians groups. Another Totalitarian ideology. I'm fairly sure it started about 1400 years ago.
TonyE Posted October 9, 2023 Posted October 9, 2023 (edited) Two videos of Merkavas getting hit, first one might be palestinians tossing explosives down the turret hatch: Edited October 9, 2023 by TonyE
lucklucky Posted October 9, 2023 Posted October 9, 2023 7 hours ago, Roman Alymov said: You have peace with Communists right now - since China, Vietnam and Cuba are officially Communist countries. And some of our nice Nordic Europe neighbors are cheering their Nazi past (with full support of the rest of "West"- as the case of in Canada Parliament have demonstrated, they are ready to invent "non-Nazi SS members" when needed). You have peace with Communists because they are not strong (Vietname and Cuba) and in case of China buying time. Of those 3, the only one that still maintain a strong Communist economy is Cuba. The others are more like Fascists pretending still to be Communists for the whole political cultural edifice not crumble. As long as you don't get too much power that you can defy the Regime you prosper and run your own capitalist company. China is also not promoting a world Communist revolution like Soviet Union or world Islamic revolution like Iran. In that sense China is more akin to a non ideologic localized Empire. It is no Communism that justify China Taiwan stance or the South Sea China stance. It is pure nationalistic. Today the world center of Marxist ideology and its Communist development are Western Universities and Western Journalism and ONG's . It is not China, Cuba or Vietname. So USA, UK etc...
Strannik Posted October 9, 2023 Posted October 9, 2023 (edited) 54 minutes ago, glenn239 said: If trends continue as they are going, Israel will eventually be overrun. That does not strike me as a solution to anything, even given all the ways in which Israel has acted arrogantly and violently in its own region. Left to its own devices Israel will go down to total defeat. Only the US can intervene in a way that brings security to Palestine. This Is an opinion,and a wildly unrealistic one, not an analysis. In any case, and even taking into consideration that political elite class in the US is pretty much one-sidedly pro-Israel, that proposition is just not going to fly with the public at large. Edited October 9, 2023 by Strannik
Der Zeitgeist Posted October 9, 2023 Posted October 9, 2023 2 hours ago, Strannik said: Saudis are out. In case anyone's wondering, that's fake news again. Not that @Strannik would care, of course.
Der Zeitgeist Posted October 9, 2023 Posted October 9, 2023 The Reuters YouTube guy is having an interesting sense of humor.
Mighty_Zuk Posted October 9, 2023 Posted October 9, 2023 49 minutes ago, glenn239 said: The occupation of Gaza should be a solely Israeli task? What do you think the US-Israeli alliance is? Many Americans have this perverted vision in which alliances mean joint warfighting, because the US has to supply UK's entire arsenal, and defend Europe if it's attacked by Russia, defend South Korea and Japan if attacked by China, defend Taiwan if also attacked, same for Jordan, Australia, and others I probably left out. But that's NOT normal! All these nations should be self sufficient and they and the US should offer each other aid whose acceptance should be the exception, not the rule. What should be common is aid in the form of industrial or economical support, rather than direct military support. Israel is self sufficient to the maximum extent a minor nation could be, and has proudly lived 75 years without foreign military intervention for its fun times.
Burncycle360 Posted October 9, 2023 Posted October 9, 2023 1 hour ago, Strannik said: Right, colonizers won't get rest unless they integrate the colonized or genocide them. You make it sound as if all the Israelis have to do is "stop persecuting the poor Palestinians" and this whole thing stops. That isn't the situation. The Israelis have to cease to exist for this to stop. So, if the alternative is constant attacks, death by a thousand cuts and worrying about the safety of your children then yeah, those are your options. Convert or die, because this stuff that's going on now isn't gonna work. Unless exile becomes an option but the neighboring states don't want the Palestinians either. Are you trying to appeal to some sense of morality? If the situation were reversed, do you believe Hamas would show restraint ? Hamas would have zero issues murdering every last jew with their tanks and F16s then going to sleep with the fan on medium. They're savages, bent on genocide but too small to do it. Civilization tolerates that at their own peril. It behooves the Palestinian people to oust the radicals from within and accept a two state solution, because if they force the Israelis to do it then they are entirely justified.
sunday Posted October 9, 2023 Posted October 9, 2023 26 minutes ago, lucklucky said: Today the world center of Marxist ideology and its Communist development are Western Universities and Western Journalism and ONG's . It is not China, Cuba or Vietname. So USA, UK etc... Indeed. Beginning to doubt who won the Cold War?
Strannik Posted October 9, 2023 Posted October 9, 2023 12 minutes ago, Burncycle360 said: You make it sound as if all the Israelis have to do is "stop persecuting the poor Palestinians" and this whole thing stops. That isn't the situation. The Israelis have to cease to exist for this to stop. So, if the alternative is constant attacks, death by a thousand cuts and worrying about the safety of your children then yeah, those are your options. Convert or die, because this stuff that's going on now isn't gonna work. Unless exile becomes an option but the neighboring states don't want the Palestinians either. Are you trying to appeal to some sense of morality? If the situation were reversed, do you believe Hamas would show restraint ? Hamas would have zero issues murdering every last jew with their tanks and F16s then going to sleep with the fan on medium. They're savages, bent on genocide but too small to do it. Civilization tolerates that at their own peril. It behooves the Palestinian people to oust the radicals from within and accept a two state solution, because if they force the Israelis to do it then they are entirely justified. That's an Israeli myth supported by Western press. Israeli Arabs (even being 2nd class citizens) are fairly integrated. And it's Israel that has buried the two state solution btw, so you are being funny now.
Burncycle360 Posted October 9, 2023 Posted October 9, 2023 (edited) 7 minutes ago, Strannik said: That's an Israeli myth supported by Western press. Israeli Arabs (even being 2nd class citizens) are fairly integrated. And it's Israel that has buried the two state solution btw, so you are being funny now. Integrated Israeli arabs aren't the problem. As far as two state solution being shot down by Israel, it's because the demand from the opposition is a state with borders pre war. Not gonna happen, and they're not in a position to negotiate. Edited October 9, 2023 by Burncycle360
Strannik Posted October 9, 2023 Posted October 9, 2023 (edited) A part of my point, which flew high over your head, exactly Edited October 9, 2023 by Strannik
Der Zeitgeist Posted October 9, 2023 Posted October 9, 2023 11 minutes ago, Mistral said: Dont know if its from the first night or not That was yesterday evening, the salvo that went for central Israel. The initial attack was on Saturday after sunrise.
seahawk Posted October 9, 2023 Posted October 9, 2023 1 hour ago, DKTanker said: Perhaps you mean a modern version of the Maginot Line? As I'm sure you understand, the intra-German border, as well as its extension between FRG and Czechoslovakia, were prison walls intended to keep populations imprisoned by their own governments. The analogy would be if Hamas built border fortifications with mines and machineguns pointed inward toward Gaza to imprison its own people. I was more thinking about the technical details than who was operating it. Fence followed by engagement zone with vehicle ditch, mines, anti-tank obstacles and other obstacles, followed by solid concrete wall.
EchoFiveMike Posted October 9, 2023 Posted October 9, 2023 1 hour ago, DKTanker said: I'm fairly sure it started about 1400 years ago. It started somewhere around the early pages of the Bible. No one gets along in the region. Not since day 1. 2 hours ago, glenn239 said: When prisoners take over a prison, you can't have it where the police surround the prison and then let the most ruthless prisoners run the show. The police have to retake the prison and establish order. Gaza is the prison, the Israelis are the police. Prisons are a modern luxury of the well resourced. Traditionally, you just kill social problems like criminals. 2 hours ago, glenn239 said: Gaza must be occupied and Hamas removed from power by force. If these tasks are beyond the strength of Israel then the US needs to stop talking about being Israel's ally and actually start being Israel's ally, with troops on the ground. The fuck with that non-sense, we don't need to get involved with European befuckery, we especially don't need to get involved with Middle Eastern befuckery. Playing neurotic enabling parent to spoiled brat children is despicable, whether on the individual level, or as nations. All this feminine and juvenile moral preening aside, one side must destroy, or at the very least expel the other, or else this will continue. It always has, and always will, until decisive action is taken. The entirety of human history indicates this. S/F....Ken M
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