Authoritarian and Totalitarian Democracies

[Stuart Galbraith]

Yes, that is largely what has already been done. And they still keep coming, at a far higher rate than they are repatriated. The logic is to go after the people traffickers, but to do that you need links with the French, and we just pissed those down the toilet. So...

Worth pointing out, Eire is also having an influx of migrants as well. Ironically by people transitioning the UK on the way there. The theory is fine. That it doesnt work is fairly clear. To do deal with the migrant problem is going to take all Europe working together, and that clearly isnt working like that, not even inside the EU.

https://news.sky.com/story/is-immigration-to-ireland-out-of-control-many-in-the-land-of-a-hundred-thousand-welcomes-are-worried-13025649

 

[rmgill]

Well, you could stop giving them free welfare and housing as a start. 

 

[Stuart Galbraith]

Oh dear, someone has been talking to Nigel Farrage again.

[urbanoid]

No, not much has been done at all, unfortunately. Every country is perfectly able to solve the problem if they really wanted do. You don't need bureaucrats debating, you don't need input from some gay-ass refugee advocates, you need a political decision physically put them on the planes, including physically forcing them to if they resist.

Poland is still doing pushbacks to Belarus even under new center/liberal government. According to some gay-ass refugee conventions it's illegal, according to some gay-ass refugee advocates it's inhumane and it doesn't matter, we're still doing it.

Edited June 18, 2024 by urbanoid

[rmgill]

44 minutes ago, Stuart Galbraith said:

Oh dear, someone has been talking to Nigel Farrage again.

Are you asserting in your usual disigenuous way that the UK does NOT give welfare benefits to the immgrants that you assert are necessary but wnder how to keep out? 

You know, Japan is an Island Nation too. They don't have the same immigrant issues the UK has. 

And no, I'm not talking to Nigel Farrage. I am every understanding of human nature. If you give people free stuff they will go and take advantage of that. That's why some US states have higher numbers of Somalis for example. Free government handouts to immigrants (legal and not). 

[Stuart Galbraith]

49 minutes ago, urbanoid said:

No, not much has been done at all, unfortunately. Every country is perfectly able to solve the problem if they really wanted do. You don't need bureaucrats debating, you don't need input from some gay-ass refugee advocates, you need a political decision physically put them on the planes, including physically forcing them to if they resist.

Poland is still doing pushbacks to Belarus even under new center/liberal government. According to some gay-ass refugee conventions it's illegal, according to some gay-ass refugee advocates it's inhumane and it doesn't matter, we're still doing it.

The context is different though. Its one thing to have weaponized refugees pushed through the border by the Belarusians, and some of them even throwing rocks at your border guards. its another to have boats of 27 refugees going down in the channel and bodies washed ashore, some of them kids, because nobody can figure out what the hell to do.

Conservatives have embraced all ideas. They were even going to try and get the Royal Navy to drag rafts back into French waters and let them deal with it. Then the RN, recognising that would be violating French Soverignty, not to mention dangerous to the people in the Dingys, told them to foxtrot oscar. At that point they seem to have rapidly ran out of ideas. Rwanda is the current poster child, largely because other alternatives, like speeding up processing, seem beyond them.

Then there is the Greeks, again, a different perspective. They dealt with it by putting them in dingys and leaving them maroon without outboard motors in Turkish waters. And then, when that wasnt working for them, throwing them overboard and letting them drown.

 

Me, im chill. I dont think we have anything worth preserving if we choose to behave like fascists to preserve it. Of course, opinions vary.

[urbanoid]

14 minutes ago, Stuart Galbraith said:

The context is different though. Its one thing to have weaponized refugees pushed through the border by the Belarusians, and some of them even throwing rocks at your border guards. its another to have boats of 27 refugees going down in the channel and bodies washed ashore, some of them kids, because nobody can figure out what the hell to do.

Conservatives have embraced all ideas. They were even going to try and get the Royal Navy to drag rafts back into French waters and let them deal with it. Then the RN, recognising that would be violating French Soverignty, not to mention dangerous to the people in the Dingys, told them to foxtrot oscar. At that point they seem to have rapidly ran out of ideas. Rwanda is the current poster child, largely because other alternatives, like speeding up processing, seem beyond them.

Then there is the Greeks, again, a different perspective. They dealt with it by putting them in dingys and leaving them maroon without outboard motors in Turkish waters. And then, when that wasnt working for them, throwing them overboard and letting them drown.

 

Me, im chill. I dont think we have anything worth preserving if we choose to behave like fascists to preserve it. Of course, opinions vary.

Oh, in our case the gay-ass refugee assistance organisations and their collaborators have been whining for years about reportedly 'dozens' of them dying in Belarusian forests because we don't let them in/push them back. I don't care and apparently neither do our governments.

If what is reported about the Greeks is true, absolutely based.

As far as I'm concerned, the survival of my country and culture as I know them, the security and even standards of living of my countrymen are what I'd easily choose over the fate of thirdworlders, it's not even a contest. 

Edited June 18, 2024 by urbanoid

[rmgill]

1. Gather them up.

2. Take care of emergent issues like injuries, pregnancies, etc

3. Quickly triage if they have legitimate claims, likely not.

4. Move them to transportation points and fly them home. 
 

5. Bob’s your uncle. Such transport cannot be as costly as housing the in hotels, paying welfare benefits and other costs for the next 50 years. 

 

Economic migrants have no right to move to another country and just walk in. 

[TrustMe]

3 minutes ago, urbanoid said:

....As far as I'm concerned, the survival of my country and culture as I know them, the security and even standards of living of my countrymen are what I'd easily choose over the fate of thirdworlders, it's not even a contest. ...

I agree completely with this. 

[sunday]

It is possible that Stuart would agree too, once they begin to appear in his corner in the Cottswolds, to be elected to local councils, to down trees, to build *new* lodgings, etc.

See what happened in Nantucket, Martha's Vineyard, etc.

Edited June 18, 2024 by sunday

[Stuart Galbraith]

My family are refugees. They came out of Germany, stayed in England long enough to get a boat to the new world. One of them was unwise enough to come back. I've a strong suspicion my father's lot were victims of the Highland clearances, judging by how many of them ended up in Ireland and the new world.

We can keep sticking our head in the sand, or we can acknowledge this is a problem Europe has been suffering regularly since the middle ages. And you can sneer Sunday, but I know we took more than a few of your countrymen when you were going through that spot of unpleasantness in the 30s. One of their descendents even ended up as a minister in Thatchers cabinet. And Urbanoid, I live a few hundred yards from a former Polish refugee camp. There descendents still live in the local community. I even knew one of the the first generation in the 1980s. Not forgetting the thousands of Jews, Czechs and others that followed in their wake.

We keep telling ourselves it's a new problem every generation, and we use it time and again to justify the most draconian legislation and political systems. That isn't saying I want an open door. But I really am bored with the pretention our ethnic identity is something special that must be preserved. Our heritage is Indo african, just like everyone else.

Europe will get immigrants. It's inevitable and even necessary. The only debate to be had is how many come in, and how you control the numbers. Pretending zero is a possibility still is a fantasy. Not even the Romans could stop it, and I wager that neither will we.

 

[old_goat]

5 hours ago, urbanoid said:

 

As far as I'm concerned, the survival of my country and culture as I know them, the security and even standards of living of my countrymen are what I'd easily choose over the fate of thirdworlders, it's not even a contest. 

100% agree. BTW, thats why we should fight not only the leftists, but also the fake right wingers too, like Orbán in Hungary or Meloni in Italy. They do just as much damage as the left.

[urbanoid]

8 minutes ago, Stuart Galbraith said:

But I really am bored with the pretention our ethnic identity is something special that must be preserved.

Yes, it's absolutely special, first of all because it's ours, all other arguments are cherry on top. 

[TrustMe]

I'm all for immigration when theirs a legitimate reason. But if it's just economic migrants they can piss off.

[Stuart Galbraith]

Much of the infrastructure in the UK was built by Irish economic migrants. The transmitter towers, built by Polish economic migrants. Every time you eat a strawberry or drink beer brewed in the UK, chances are that was picked as a result of economic migrants. Short termist, its true, but they were still stealing British jobs, in a modern perspective.

We need to get over ourselves. Either we want economic growth in which case we need to import people, or introduce social systems to make it easier for families to have more children to provide the low wage industries of tomorrow. Instead we prefer to go and blame the people that use the system, rather than ourselves that exploit them.

Back in the 1980's, there was a really good drama series called 'Auf Wiedersehen, Pet', about Geordies that go to work in Germany on a building site. They were there because the industries in the Uk that could have employed them collapsed. And part of it was about the racism of some of the West Germans towards this cultural influx.

Here we are, 40 years later, and we dont seem to have learned any lessons from our own experience in the bad times.

 

Edited June 19, 2024 by Stuart Galbraith

[rmgill]

Stuart would welcome the Great Heathen Army into his home it would seem. 
 

Are you ready for calls to prayer and sharia laws? 

Edited June 19, 2024 by rmgill

[sunday]

But not another Queen Mary Tudor, I guess.

[Stuart Galbraith]

1 hour ago, rmgill said:

Stuart would welcome the Great Heathen Army into his home it would seem. 
 

Are you ready for calls to prayer and sharia laws? 

There you go into 'lets put words in Stuarts mouth so I can argue with him again' mode. Dear me Ryan, why not actually generate some debating skills rather than debate like we are 12 year olds in the playground?

Ive already told you, ethnically, I dont care what colour the people of the UK are. We have no genetic heritage that hasnt been wells safeguarded elsewhere, not least in your own country. Am I really concerned White Anglo Saxons are an endangered species? Not at all. We won the world, and that has no immediate chance of change.

Culturally, yes, I DO care what happens to the country. But that is dependent upon Politicians finding workable plans to keep numbers at a level they desire. Something your country is just as piss poor at as my country. so If I were you, I wouldnt try sneering about it, not least because many of the migrant flows we are dealing with are from places you broke and dumped like an uninteresting toy, Libya, Iraq and Afghanistan to name but three.

Have you got any answers? No. Instead you prefer to try and break the balls of someone pointing out what the issues actually are and suggesting answers. Why dont you do that rather than indulging your Trump cringe for once?

Edited June 19, 2024 by Stuart Galbraith

[urbanoid]

Just embrace 'my borders my choice' principle.

 

Edited June 19, 2024 by urbanoid

[Stuart Galbraith]

Even as long ago as the 1970's, there were reports of people being drowned coming ashore on the NW coast of Britain. Mainly indians apparently. There were even stories of helicopters flying in from Europe, which when disgorge a cargo of black skinned people.

How does he plan to stop the illegal immigrants? By 'saying no'. Oh well, thats alright then, thats gotta work...

 

[urbanoid]

How do we stop them? Probably the way I described it.

[rmgill]

14 minutes ago, Stuart Galbraith said:

Even as long ago as the 1970's, there were reports of people being drowned coming ashore on the NW coast of Britain. Mainly indians apparently. There were even stories of helicopters flying in from Europe, which when disgorge a cargo of black skinned people.

How does he plan to stop the illegal immigrants? By 'saying no'. Oh well, thats alright then, thats gotta work...

 

How are they getting that far from India? Its not like they are swimming or taking a short raft ride from Cuba to Florida. 
 

There are folks, organizations, criminal and legal assisting in this. Go after them. 
 

I ought to start a gun company and start selling guns to british. Just boat them ashore. No way to stop that is there? Come on Stu, use those little grey cells. 

Edited June 19, 2024 by rmgill

[Tim Sielbeck]

15 hours ago, Stuart Galbraith said:

Either we want economic growth in which case we need to import people...

 

You don't create economic growth by importing more people for the same number of jobs you had previously.  That's the way to depress wages.  If you had more jobs than workers wages would go up because employers would be competing to hire people and, therefore, offer better wages and benefits.  Right now you have more workers that are competing for a set number of jobs so employers can, and will, hire people who will work for less and less money.  If you want economic growth you need to create more jobs. 

[Ivanhoe]

This sort of thing doesn't seem like a net positive;

 

[Ivanhoe]

https://www.gbnews.com/news/world/france-migration-rape-cases-paris-foreigners

 

https://www.nydailynews.com/2024/06/19/sickening-details-emerge-in-migrant-mans-alleged-rape-of-teen-in-queens-park-as-he-gets-held-without-bail/

 

https://nypost.com/2024/05/16/us-news/migrant-attacked-women-in-rape-dungeon-on-wheels-outside-la-report/

 

https://www.fox32chicago.com/news/venezuelan-migrant-sexual-assault-uic

 

https://nypost.com/2023/09/21/eagle-pass-mayor-warns-of-migrant-chaos-engulfing-city/
 

Quote

 

“I’ve never seen people cross like this,” said the mayor, who is also a life-long Eagle Pass resident.

“If they’re going to come, they must enter through the port of entry. I know people are desperate, but this is a nation of laws.

“Our cops are overwhelmed. Our firefighters are responding to calls for care for migrants. We don’t have the resources to handle this.

“We’ve seen robberies, they’ve broken into homes.”

 

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/09/20/us/delrio-texas-migrants-crisis.html

I know someone who grew up in Del Rio. Used to be a nice town. Used to be. Illegal immigration has put a double-whammy on that poor (literally) town. Its the biggest town next to Amistad Reservoir, a very scenic water for fishing. No tourist in their right mind is going to vacation there now.