Germany wants Italy, Sweden, Spain in next other tank. Kills MGCS with France?

[lucklucky]

https://www.handelsblatt.com/politik/international/leopard-2-nachfolger-deutschland-startet-neue-kampfpanzer-allianz/29374860.html

 

Quote

 

Berlin, Brussels, Paris Germany is making a new start for the development of a successor to Leopard 2. Led by Krauss-Maffei Wegmann (KMW) and Rheinmetall An alliance with partners from Italy, Spain and Sweden is to design a new main battle tank, as the Handelsblatt learned from circles of industry and politics.

The parties involved signed corresponding contracts a few days ago, and the partners now want to apply for funding from the European Defense Fund (EDF). It is about a three-digit million amount.

The merger comes as a surprise because Germany already has a similar cooperation with France closed. In 2017, the governments agreed on a main-great combat tank project called the Main Ground Combat System (MGCS) to replace the Leopard 2 and the French tank Leclerc from the middle of the next decade.

 

 

[BansheeOne]

The same paper reported on Monday that MGCS is about to collapse. Maybe that was floated by the cited "industry and government circles" as a warning to get the quarreling partners in line, but after years of misgivings and delays, nobody would be surprised if the project was buried before the year is over.

[urbanoid]

Maybe it wasn't that bad that we were told to fuck off?  

[lucklucky]

4 minutes ago, urbanoid said:

Maybe it wasn't that bad that we were told to fuck off?  

Certainly . French told the same to Italians but were trying to get them onboard now...

[BansheeOne]

I mean, from the German view the matter is quite clear. We can always build a new tank of our own or evolve Leopard 2 further, now that there's suddenly money for defense again. The French OTOH are pretty much relegated to buying from us, or else from the Americans, or maybe Koreans. So German industry can basically tell them "my way or the highway".

[methos]

This topic is very often misunderstood. German companies KMW and Rheinmetall (together with Leonardo from Italy, SAAB from Sweden and a Spanish partner - maybe GDELS?) have submitted a bid for a EDF program. The program is focused on developing concepts for new MBTs and options to upgrade existing ones. Total value of the allocated budget for this EDF program is only €20 million, so nowhere enough to even build a single prototype of a modern MBT.

The French industry suposedly also wanted to be part of this bid, but the DGA forbade them from cooperating with the German partners. At least that is what German media citing "insiders" claims.

Edited September 7, 2023 by methos

[kokovi]

On 9/7/2023 at 4:05 PM, BansheeOne said:

I mean, from the German view the matter is quite clear. We can always build a new tank of our own or evolve Leopard 2 further, now that there's suddenly money for defense again. The French OTOH are pretty much relegated to buying from us, or else from the Americans, or maybe Koreans. So German industry can basically tell them "my way or the highway".

I hope that you are right. Doing anything defense related together with the French is just plain stupid. We sold out our helicopter industry to them and got crappy products in return (Tiger and NH-90). I hope we learn from that and leave MGCS before it is too late. If we were really lucky, KNDS would get axed, too, and KMW and Rheinmetall would start to properly cooperate.

[BansheeOne]

But they hate each other probably more than French and German industry.

There is already the KF 51 Panther turret as a starting point of course. A new hull instead of the Leopard 2 one used in the demonstrator is envisaged for any production variant anyway, and would be a straightforward item to share development of with partners, allowing Rheinmetall to hold on to the piece with the cherry on top. Which has been the main contention in MGCS, who gets to build the main gun and design the turret around it. Hungary is allegedly already on board; or so Viktor Orban recently claimed on TikTok, so it must be true.

 

[DB]

I find it wryly amusing that the choice of main gun will come down to whatever a corporate entity uses as a proxy for personality rather than a technical consideration.

How's the workshare going with the aircraft project?

 

[kokovi]

I do not know what the current status of FCAS is. But I am worried. Projects with France either failed or delivered crappy results like Tiger and NH-90. Projects with the UK, Italy, Spain and the Netherlands usually worked and delivered stuff like EF2000, Tornado, Boxer, F122 and F124, yet our politicians have chosen to do MGCS and FCAS with France for symbolic reasons…

[Stuart Galbraith]

French are usually excellent  engineers, so it must be politics somewhere screwing things up.

[BansheeOne]

Well, cooperation with France also yielded, Milan, HOT, Roland and Alpha Jet; A400M as a multinational project with de-facto French lead was plagued by political decisions on workshare and appeared way over time and budget with lots of teething problems, but is developing into a capable aircraft. And in fairness, the joint frigate projects with the Netherlands also resulted in both sides eventually building their own ships with some common elements. Still, designing by committee, then fighting over workshare will usually lead to sub-optimal results.

[DB]

... and every(*) MBDA product since about 1995.

(*) Except MBDA Germany, which still ploughs its own furrow.

If I were in FCAS, I'd worry about the engines from a technical point of view, the French seem to be good at everything else.

[methos]

No, MBDA is still rather split up. Not only MBDA Deutschland (as it is officially called) makes its own stuff, the British, Italian and French parts also do their own thing. E.g. look at Brimstone, Teseo and Akeron...

[DB]

Yes, of course you're right. None of these have the slightest hint of any form of inter-country cooperation. And there never has been, which is why SCALP EG and Storm Shadow are completely different beasts...

[seahawk]

On 9/12/2023 at 12:26 PM, DB said:

I find it wryly amusing that the choice of main gun will come down to whatever a corporate entity uses as a proxy for personality rather than a technical consideration.

How's the workshare going with the aircraft project?

 

To be honest the 130mm seems to be the better option on technical merits.

[Ssnake]

On which technical merits?

[seahawk]

ASCALON, in the first version to be fielded, needs 140mm telescopic ammunition to achieve an energy output similar to the long 120mm. Even the planed upgrades only take it to 14MJ, while the 130mm is set to reach nearly 20MJ. Telescopic ammunition is optional. Yes, ASCALON has lower chamber pressure and other advantages, but I think the system lacks growth potential for a system that will probably be in service in 2100.

[Ssnake]

OK, thanks.

[Hal]

This feels like one of those declarations of total commitment made just hours or days before a project is unceremoniously flushed...

 

https://www.defensenews.com/global/europe/2023/09/20/france-germany-remain-committed-to-new-tank-defense-ministers-say/

[BansheeOne]

They also stated that MGCS will be pushed back to 2040-45 though. And from their statements and accompanying images, it's clear again that it isn't supposed to be a single vehicle, but multiple optionally manned command, support and effector platforms working in concert with sensors, LOS and NLOS weapons, drones, AI, etc.

On 9/9/2023 at 10:27 AM, BansheeOne said:

There is already the KF 51 Panther turret as a starting point of course. A new hull instead of the Leopard 2 one used in the demonstrator is envisaged for any production variant anyway, and would be a straightforward item to share development of with partners, allowing Rheinmetall to hold on to the piece with the cherry on top. Which has been the main contention in MGCS, who gets to build the main gun and design the turret around it. Hungary is allegedly already on board; or so Viktor Orban recently claimed on TikTok, so it must be true.

In fact the well-connected "Handelsblatt" now reports that Hungary and Rheinmetall have achieved "basic understanding" that Panther will finish development and be produced in Hungary.

[lucklucky]

From the looks of it they can just get Merkava IV and Namer and build some variants from last one. I know, i know  not in industry interests.

[Mighty_Zuk]

7 hours ago, lucklucky said:

From the looks of it they can just get Merkava IV and Namer and build some variants from last one. I know, i know  not in industry interests.

While that would be a smart decision, European procurement policies are already enough punishment for local defense industries.

[DB]

For the MGCS, presumably they're not pulling an entire operational concept out of their engineering third point of contact, but are responding to outline CONOPS/CONUSE from at least one country's military. otherwise, they're trying to force doctrine to match what they're trying to sell, and it really shouldn't be that way round.

[BansheeOne]

On 9/9/2023 at 10:27 AM, BansheeOne said:

There is already the KF 51 Panther turret as a starting point of course. A new hull instead of the Leopard 2 one used in the demonstrator is envisaged for any production variant anyway, and would be a straightforward item to share development of with partners, allowing Rheinmetall to hold on to the piece with the cherry on top. Which has been the main contention in MGCS, who gets to build the main gun and design the turret around it. Hungary is allegedly already on board; or so Viktor Orban recently claimed on TikTok, so it must be true.

Rheinmetall now claims they're one-and-a-half years away from series production of Panther for Hungary, which will cover the necessary cost remaining.