sunday Posted November 7, 2023 Posted November 7, 2023 10 minutes ago, Markus Becker said: You have very nattow margins nowadays, don't you? So even a rather small action could tip the balance. Remember that Biden got more votes in Minnesota than Hillary Clinton did in 2016 or than Barack Obama did in 2012 and 2008. Perhaps not so small actions...
Skywalkre Posted November 7, 2023 Posted November 7, 2023 15 hours ago, rmgill said: If you never look for the fraud I'll stop you right there. This is BS. Unequivocal BS. Take my state and yours. Your state, led by Rs, has been serious about looking into this... and found nothing. In my state the R AG at the time looked into it, in fact spent a LOT of time looking into allegations of fraud (over 10k hours that could have been spent on actual crimes), and then sat on the results because he was a MAGA-diehard who didn't want to hurt his future political ambitions. For those who forgot here are two stories to refresh your memory of that incident: https://apnews.com/article/arizona-state-government-2022-midterm-elections-donald-trump-fraud-55d9a729d412ef45ba234d5397cc8839 https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/politics-news/former-arizona-attorney-general-failed-release-report-disproving-elect-rcna71856 So many of you base your skepticism on fantasies that have been shown to be inaccurate... and when this is pointed out you still don't budge. That's on you...
Skywalkre Posted November 7, 2023 Posted November 7, 2023 (edited) 14 hours ago, Murph said: Do you notice how suddenly his tone has changed from There was never any fraud, It was the most perfect election ever, too well, there was a little fraud. Typical liberal moving the goalposts. Aaaaaaand Murph is back to posting BS! Shock, surprise... I've never stated "there was never any fraud" or '20 was "the most perfect election ever". Those are strawmen Trump and his supporters like you blindly parrot. Quote me if you think I've said such things. You won't be able to. I'll be waiting... Edited November 7, 2023 by Skywalkre
Skywalkre Posted November 7, 2023 Posted November 7, 2023 1 hour ago, Markus Becker said: You have very nattow margins nowadays, don't you? So even a rather small action could tip the balance. The margins are usually still an order of magnitude larger than the combination of rejected ballots and actual fraud cases prosecuted.
Skywalkre Posted November 7, 2023 Posted November 7, 2023 1 hour ago, sunday said: Remember that Biden got more votes in Minnesota than Hillary Clinton did in 2016 or than Barack Obama did in 2012 and 2008. Perhaps not so small actions... Huh... almost like... population growth coupled to higher voter turnout (which is still low compared to most other Western nations) ended up getting him more votes. Just... a CRAZY thing to consider... 🙄
Markus Becker Posted November 7, 2023 Posted November 7, 2023 (edited) 1 hour ago, Skywalkre said: The margins are usually still an order of magnitude larger than the combination of rejected ballots and actual fraud cases prosecuted. Well, if you don't look, you don't find much. And then there are the states where ballot harvesting is actually legal. That and other ways can manipulate an election without breaking any law. Edited November 7, 2023 by Markus Becker
Skywalkre Posted November 7, 2023 Posted November 7, 2023 (edited) 26 minutes ago, Markus Becker said: Well, if you don't look, you don't find much. Again, this is a fantasy that keeps getting pushed by the MAGA crowd without any evidence. The state back in '20 with the closest count was here in AZ and I linked articles just a few posts up highlighting how, an R AG, did look and found nothing (and then sat on the results). Other states have looked as well. 26 minutes ago, Markus Becker said: And then there are the states where ballot harvesting is actually legal. That and other ways can manipulate an election without breaking any law. If it's not illegal it's not manipulation... it's just the vote. Not liking something doesn't make it illegal. Edited November 7, 2023 by Skywalkre
Josh Posted November 7, 2023 Posted November 7, 2023 (edited) 17 hours ago, Murph said: Do you notice how suddenly his tone has changed from There was never any fraud, It was the most perfect election ever, too well, there was a little fraud. Typical liberal moving the goalposts. I have not reviewed the thread but I don’t think anyone ever claimed “no fraud”. I think it would be more accurate to say “no steal” or no significant fraud at the national level. I posted a conservative think tanks list of election fraud cases; it numbered several hundred total over three decades. There are definitely real cases of fraud and we have already discussed some of those cases, some of which involved Republicans. So “zero fraud” I think is a straw man. I think the tone change was more due to you posting and actual fraud cases that hadn’t already been debunked or involved a republican voter. Serious question: at what government level did fraud take place in which states? By how many votes? If it is so obvious, presumably you can be specific and name which states were flipped by how many votes and why they “got away with it”. Edited November 7, 2023 by Josh
Josh Posted November 7, 2023 Posted November 7, 2023 4 hours ago, Markus Becker said: You have very nattow margins nowadays, don't you? So even a rather small action could tip the balance. Narrow margins for entire states are still five digit numbers. I think the closes US state of GA and it was still a 10,000 vote difference. Altering the president outcome would have to involve 10,000+ votes flipped or added to 4-5 specific swing states.
Josh Posted November 7, 2023 Posted November 7, 2023 1 hour ago, Markus Becker said: Well, if you don't look, you don't find much. And then there are the states where ballot harvesting is actually legal. That and other ways can manipulate an election without breaking any law. Well by that definition the greatest injustice of US voting is the EC system and Citizens United, not a bunch of Florida convicts who didn’t realize they couldn’t vote and were registered by the state anyway.
rmgill Posted November 7, 2023 Posted November 7, 2023 1 hour ago, Skywalkre said: Again, this is a fantasy that keeps getting pushed by the MAGA crowd without any evidence. And what is being pushed by the anti-american-anti-western crowd is that fraud never happens. Despite that I Identified it personally and saw the gap in the system with my own mother's extant 3 cycles after her death. Simply put, It doesn't happen is bullcrap. The counties with the largest issues are rife with crime even in the government level.
Murph Posted November 7, 2023 Author Posted November 7, 2023 12 minutes ago, rmgill said: And what is being pushed by the anti-american-anti-western crowd is that fraud never happens. Despite that I Identified it personally and saw the gap in the system with my own mother's extant 3 cycles after her death. Simply put, It doesn't happen is bullcrap. The counties with the largest issues are rife with crime even in the government level. DING DING DING! Once more they ignore their comments, and claim no fraud, Biden REALLY got 81 million (legal) votes (HAHAHAHAHA!), to admitting well, maybe there might have been some fraud, but Biden still won. Aided by the Deep State:
Markus Becker Posted November 7, 2023 Posted November 7, 2023 1 hour ago, Josh said: Narrow margins for entire states are still five digit numbers. I think the closes US state of GA and it was still a 10,000 vote difference. Altering the president outcome would have to involve 10,000+ votes flipped or added to 4-5 specific swing states. 10k is how many or few percentage points? 0.23. Razor thin.
Josh Posted November 7, 2023 Posted November 7, 2023 (edited) 24 minutes ago, Markus Becker said: 10k is how many or few percentage points? 0.23. Razor thin. 10k is a lot compared to the actual amount of voter fraud detected, which is in the low hundreds going back a few decades. And again, that would have to be replicated across at least three states to alter the result. Note that almost all those swing states have Republican led legislatures and that AZ and GA, the states brought up the most in the bogus fraud allegations, have GOP governors. Kemp of GA has explicitly stated that the elections were conducted fairly in his state. The only voter fraud case in this entire thread that rises above a single individual voting with someone else's creditials/ballot to stuff a ballot box by all of one single vote is the example in Bridgeport CT, a firmly blue state that was conducting a *primary* at the local city level. Edited November 7, 2023 by Josh
Markus Becker Posted November 7, 2023 Posted November 7, 2023 9 minutes ago, Josh said: 10k is a lot compared to the actual amount of voter fraud detected, Emphasis on fraud and detected! Manipulation by Fake News, Zuckerbucks, Mail in Ballots, drop boxes... isn't fraud but it's manipulation.
Josh Posted November 7, 2023 Posted November 7, 2023 (edited) 33 minutes ago, Markus Becker said: Emphasis on fraud and detected! Manipulation by Fake News, Zuckerbucks, Mail in Ballots, drop boxes... isn't fraud but it's manipulation. Again, the alleged fraud occurred in states largely run by Republicans who somehow didn't detect it in their own states. By the same token, I could say that Trump stole the 2016 election, because we don't know how much Republican voter fraud was detected. Burden of proof is on them and you that fraud occurred. Edited November 7, 2023 by Josh
Tim the Tank Nut Posted November 7, 2023 Posted November 7, 2023 I can't believe I'm posting on this thread but here goes (told you I wasn't very smart): In aggregate the conditions around the last election were so different from previous elections that it's no wonder one side is skeptical of the other. The ease by which ballots became avaialble to people who weren't typically part of the election process is an example of where manipulation is a greater factor than outright fraud. Given that voter fraud has been considered a regular occurrence in Chicago and Pennsylvania for decades I'm not sure how it's unthinkable now. AS far as direct fraud goes, I'm not sure how one proves or disproves it when it is a secret ballot. The outright hostility that the D side has for voter ID doesn't make the R side feel warm and fuzzy. We KNOW that the dead vote "D". That has been a truism since before the war. We KNOW that the Unions influenced elections as far back as we could see. If Dominion had the capacity to program voting machines to do inappropriate tallies does anyone beleive for a second that they don't have the ability to hide the programming? Our own government was able to adjust elections in Central America for decades, why would I think that we don't know how to do that now? The entire COVID experience is too fantastic to be anything other than a calculated gamble. Throughput the runup to the election it was forbidden to consider the possibility that China was involved. After the election that point didn't age well. From my chair the last election looks fishy as hell. I can't definitively prove it but it's like walking through the woods and smeeling something dead. I can't find the animal's remains, but I can smell it. Votes were "Found" in numerous precincts where every single vote was for Team D. How likely is that from a statistical point of view? What was it that they said in MIB? "Imagine what you'll know tomorrow." For my part it doesn't matter about the fraud. Our side should have enough of a lead that it can't be changed by fraud. The closeness of the current election cycle is because Trump can't get over talking about the last election. If he wants to win it needs to be about the issues of here and now. The Democrats are like the Borg in both thought and methodology. They assimilate. Whether current events breaks their unholy coalition or not remains to be seen... If nothing else, we do live in interesting times
Markus Becker Posted November 8, 2023 Posted November 8, 2023 (edited) 13 hours ago, Josh said: Again, the alleged fraud occurred in states largely run by Republicans who somehow didn't detect it in their own states. By the same token, I could say that Trump stole the 2016 election, because we don't know how much Republican voter fraud was detected. Burden of proof is on them and you that fraud occurred. Are we talking fraud in the legal sense or the above mentioned manipulations that aren't illegal? Wrt, the states. In Georgia it was the Atlanta area wasn't it? And that palce isn't just deep blue but also has a history of election irregularities afaik. The more recent incident in Arizona also happened in a blue area. Edited November 8, 2023 by Markus Becker
Josh Posted November 8, 2023 Posted November 8, 2023 37 minutes ago, Markus Becker said: Are we talking fraud in the legal sense or the above mentioned manipulations that aren't illegal? I’m explicitly talking about fraud in the legal sense of the word, as alleged by Trump supporters. There are plof legal ways to influence voting in the US; everyone acknowledges that without money you will lose. Our entire system is inherently less democratic than most of Europe just given the Electoral college and the way our senate seats are chosen. 37 minutes ago, Markus Becker said: Wrt, the states. In Georgia it was the Atlanta area wasn't it? And that palce isn't just deep blue but also has a history of election irregularities afaik. that is the unproven allegation, yes. The Republican governor of the state however has statthise allegations are baseless. 37 minutes ago, Markus Becker said: The more recent incident in Arizona also happened in a blue area. And it was recounted several times like GA and the outside consultants were hired by Republicans who recounted again and found several hundred more votes for Biden. Look it up.
Markus Becker Posted November 8, 2023 Posted November 8, 2023 1 hour ago, Josh said: That is the unproven allegation, yes. The Republican governor of the state however has statthise allegations are baseless. And it was recounted several times like GA and the outside consultants were hired by Republicans who recounted again and found several hundred more votes for Biden. Look it up. I'm not implying fraud but Berlin like ineptitude to follow procedures. The state had an observer in Atlanta who reported violations within hours after polls closed. And there was even talk about the state taking over election work from the county because of the F-ups of the local authority. No idea where this went though but it contrasts nicely with the initial statements. And in Arizona it was an equipment malfunction in many polling stations that lasted for many hours. Even though everything had been tested and worked before the election day(when most of the people voting in person are known to be Republicans).
rmgill Posted November 8, 2023 Posted November 8, 2023 5 hours ago, Markus Becker said: Wrt, the states. In Georgia it was the Atlanta area wasn't it? And that palce isn't just deep blue but also has a history of election irregularities afaik. Fulton county government is rife with corruption and incompetence. The Fulton county jail was taken over for a time by a federal judge because its conditions were so horrible. The county SO is corrupt as can be. The issue with s bad enough that the northern part of the county wants to separate. https://thegeorgiasun.com/2023/08/16/the-saga-of-north-fulton-and-south-fulton/
Harold Jones Posted November 8, 2023 Posted November 8, 2023 Yup totally a malicious plot to do the opposite of whatever any voter chose. https://abcnews.go.com/Technology/wireStory/voting-machines-pennsylvania-county-flip-votes-judges-error-104700241
Markus Becker Posted November 8, 2023 Posted November 8, 2023 I can still see how this doesn't instill confidence in voting machines. Though if your by hand counters are Berlin 2021 (lack of) quality, you are screwed no matter what.
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