War in Ukraine, assorted opinions

[Roman Alymov]

On 9/9/2023 at 6:09 PM, JWB said:

“Why I made contact with the CIA: For myself,” 

Russian intelligence service promo video https://vk.com/video-193848381_456250816

Youtube version 

 

Edited September 12, 2023 by Roman Alymov

[DB]

On 9/12/2023 at 1:46 PM, ink said:

If post-WWII population expulsions aren't allowed according to the quite strict rules you've set out, and it has to be a "neighbour", then the UK is indeed completely innocent.

However, if invasions are still in, I'd quite like to raise you Iraq and Afghanistan, please. If unprovoked attacks fit the rules, could I also please include Libya?

However, on reflection, you've moved the goalposts. The original discussion was sparked by someone posting a map that implied Russia is somehow uniquely immoral because of its territorial expansions throughout history. All of my subsequent posts were intended to show that this implied immorality is nothing unique.

Why would I bother? Because I'm sick of the morally superior tone of some posters who (while they clearly don't) should most certainly know better.

Finally, I'm happy to exclude all pre-WWII stuff for the sake of the discussion but would like to note two things: 1) the original map included Russian expansion going back to the 16th century, and 2) in my book, consolidating gains you've made before this arbitrary cut-off, or trying to do so but failing, is equally morally dubious as making or attempting to make new gains*.

 

* So, for example, Britain's attempt to put down the Mau Mau Rebellion is no less brutal or ghastly just because it failed to prevent Kenyan independence. Nor is it somehow morally superior, in my opinion, to a "landgrab".

The map of the expansion of Russia is propaganda - I pretty much ignore all obvious propaganda as being irrelevant at best, and a deliberate distraction at worst. This applies to the smelly nonsense published by all sides.

I tried to frame my comment in relation to Imperial expansion, and there's only two countries doing that right now. They're not in NATO and one of them isn't even in Europe.

The rights and wrongs of the UK (and other states) retaining "possessions" that were taken during their Imperial expansion phases are completely different issues to the real underlying theme here - which is that aside from Russia and China, the world is not particularly keen on anyone attempting to create an empire by conquest any more.

In all of your examples there has never been an intent to retain those territories to be a part of an empire, to permanently remove their existence as states, although you could argue that "regime change" might mean the same thing, I argue that is not the case as there is no settlement, no extermination of indigenous peoples, ad no permanent foreign governance. Each has been essentially a punitive expedition and I argue that this puts them out of scope for the current theme. Whether the decisions to use force in these cases is debatable, but shouldn't be part of this debate.

 

[Stuart Galbraith]

On 9/12/2023 at 1:46 PM, ink said:

If post-WWII population expulsions aren't allowed according to the quite strict rules you've set out, and it has to be a "neighbour", then the UK is indeed completely innocent.

However, if invasions are still in, I'd quite like to raise you Iraq and Afghanistan, please. If unprovoked attacks fit the rules, could I also please include Libya?

However, on reflection, you've moved the goalposts. The original discussion was sparked by someone posting a map that implied Russia is somehow uniquely immoral because of its territorial expansions throughout history. All of my subsequent posts were intended to show that this implied immorality is nothing unique.

Why would I bother? Because I'm sick of the morally superior tone of some posters who (while they clearly don't) should most certainly know better.

Finally, I'm happy to exclude all pre-WWII stuff for the sake of the discussion but would like to note two things: 1) the original map included Russian expansion going back to the 16th century, and 2) in my book, consolidating gains you've made before this arbitrary cut-off, or trying to do so but failing, is equally morally dubious as making or attempting to make new gains*.

 

* So, for example, Britain's attempt to put down the Mau Mau Rebellion is no less brutal or ghastly just because it failed to prevent Kenyan independence. Nor is it somehow morally superior, in my opinion, to a "landgrab".

Ink, have you actually read up on who the Mau Mau were?

[ink]

57 minutes ago, DB said:

In all of your examples there has never been an intent to retain those territories to be a part of an empire, to permanently remove their existence as states, although you could argue that "regime change" might mean the same thing, I argue that is not the case as there is no settlement, no extermination of indigenous peoples, ad no permanent foreign governance. Each has been essentially a punitive expedition and I argue that this puts them out of scope for the current theme. Whether the decisions to use force in these cases is debatable, but shouldn't be part of this debate.

 

That's precisely why the example of Diego Garcia is so illuminating. It fits all your criteria (except maybe settlement but then it is a strategic military base so perhaps settlement isn't very fitting anyway). Otherwise, there is the removal of the local population and there is permanent foreign government... all in the service of having a rocky aircraft carrier in the middle of the Indian Ocean. Not for some enlightened ideals, not even for the dubious ideals of empire, just the naked strategic interests of the UK and US.

[ink]

52 minutes ago, Stuart Galbraith said:

Ink, have you actually read up on who the Mau Mau were?

I have - that was back when I was at university - but I have.

However, given the nature of the response, I'm not quite sure how relevant it is to my overall point.

[Roman Alymov]

54 minutes ago, Stuart Galbraith said:

Ink, have you actually read up on who the Mau Mau were?

As far as i remember from BBC own reporting on this topic (as part of their history broadcasts), the most of people who suffered torture and mutulation by British colonial forces (including castrations) were not rebels (who were actually few in number and making their best not to be captured) but regular local peasants suspected to be rebels...  So whoever were Mau Mau, it is not so important.

[JWB]

39 minutes ago, ink said:

................ just the naked strategic interests of the UK and US.

Regional stability.

[JWB]

 

[Stuart Galbraith]

1 hour ago, Roman Alymov said:

As far as i remember from BBC own reporting on this topic (as part of their history broadcasts), the most of people who suffered torture and mutulation by British colonial forces (including castrations) were not rebels (who were actually few in number and making their best not to be captured) but regular local peasants suspected to be rebels...  So whoever were Mau Mau, it is not so important.

So if I pointed out the Chechen rebels were not important, but innocent Grozny citizens you bombed to buggery, tortured, raped, murdered were, you wouldn't feel upset at pointing out the parallels?

You can happily wag your morally superior flag, but first read up what the Mau Mau did to white settlers, and reflect on your own nations conduct for the past 70 years before you do.

Edited September 13, 2023 by Stuart Galbraith

[Roman Alymov]

18 minutes ago, Stuart Galbraith said:

So if I pointed out the Chechen rebels were not important, but innocent Grozny citizens you bombed to buggery, tortured, raped, murdered were, you wouldn't feel upset at pointing out the parallels?

You can happily wag your morally superior flag, but first read up what the Mau Mau did to white settlers, and reflect on your own nations conduct for the past 70 years before you do.

First of all, Grozny residents were mostly Russians and it was other side who were doing lots of nasty things on them (as Chechens were mostly rural population, industrial city Grozny with its Russian population was not only comfortable battlefield for them where they felt no problems using locals as human shield, but also nice place to loot).

Second, it was you who started waving moral flag here - while i have just reminnded you position of your own Gov ( see here for example https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/jun/06/britain-maumau-empire-waiting ) If you are unhappy about it - sorry but i do not see how i could help.

[ink]

I for one think we could all* do a bit more reflecting on our own nation's history, rather than lashing out at the other guy's.

 

* myself included, of course.

[JWB]

 

[Colin]

On 9/13/2023 at 10:21 AM, Roman Alymov said:

First of all, Grozny residents were mostly Russians and it was other side who were doing lots of nasty things on them (as Chechens were mostly rural population, industrial city Grozny with its Russian population was not only comfortable battlefield for them where they felt no problems using locals as human shield, but also nice place to loot).

Second, it was you who started waving moral flag here - while i have just reminnded you position of your own Gov ( see here for example https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/jun/06/britain-maumau-empire-waiting ) If you are unhappy about it - sorry but i do not see how i could help.

Read a book written by a Chechen Doctor. He used to treat the wounded on both sides. He said at first he could negotiate with the older Soviet General who he could trust would keep their word . He said on the 2nd go around, all the old Soviet Generals were gone and most of the Commanders were GRU and it was clear that there was to be little or no leniency to the Chechans. 

[JWB]

 

[glenn239]

On 9/13/2023 at 12:29 PM, JWB said:

 

Yes, he should take lessons from a country fighting and gradually losing a land war that uses rare cruise missiles to attack a submarine in drydock...

[JWB]

 

[Roman Alymov]

13 hours ago, Colin said:

Read a book written by a Chechen Doctor. He used to treat the wounded on both sides. He said at first he could negotiate with the older Soviet General who he could trust would keep their word . He said on the 2nd go around, all the old Soviet Generals were gone and most of the Commanders were GRU and it was clear that there was to be little or no leniency to the Chechans. 

Well, first of all the very fact you was able to read this book indicates it was translated and published in your places   - meaning, predictably biased. Second, why "GRU" is not "Soviet"? Back in this years all command officers were more or less of Soviet origin. Third, not a secret that with time going on Chechen rebel movement was increasingly highjacked by radical Islam followers sponsored by Gulf (and, as widely believed, controlled by West) - resulting not only in evolving from just "regilar" tribal war brutality that was traditional to this region into new level, and it was less and less reasons for Russian commanders to show any leniency. More over, even "traditional" Islamic leaders of Chechnya were unhappy with this radical newcommers - and finally it resulted in Kadyrov-father (Akhmad) who was not only one of field commanders but head clerick of Chechen Muslims, to side Russian forces and oppose jihadists.

[R011]

7 hours ago, JWB said:

 

You mean that this isn't actually the real V.V.Putin?  Shocked, I tell you,! Shocked!

[Stuart Galbraith]

14 hours ago, glenn239 said:

Yes, he should take lessons from a country fighting and gradually losing a land war that uses rare cruise missiles to attack a submarine in drydock...

A submarine that may well have been in the process of being converted to fire Russian cruise missiles.  And besides, you defeat an opponent by making him hurt. Denying him 2 dry docks by blockign whats in them is scarcely to be seen as a bad idea.

[Stuart Galbraith]

On 9/13/2023 at 6:21 PM, Roman Alymov said:

First of all, Grozny residents were mostly Russians and it was other side who were doing lots of nasty things on them (as Chechens were mostly rural population, industrial city Grozny with its Russian population was not only comfortable battlefield for them where they felt no problems using locals as human shield, but also nice place to loot).

Second, it was you who started waving moral flag here - while i have just reminnded you position of your own Gov ( see here for example https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/jun/06/britain-maumau-empire-waiting ) If you are unhappy about it - sorry but i do not see how i could help.

And that somehow makes it better does it?

Sure, the Chechens were some supremely nasty individuals. So tell me, when one of your Regimental Col's gets arrested for rape and murder, was that somehow setting a high moral bar? Or the beating up, occasionally murdering ofJournalists that were investigating the war, was that demonstrating the high moral superiority over the West you wish to illustrate?

On the contrary, I know damn well we committed crimes on the part of Empire. But we left that empire behind in all but name some 60 years ago, try as I might, im unable to feel quite the same level of outrage over it as nations that are still committing crimes for purely imperialist reasons and have yet to learn the lessons.

On 9/13/2023 at 6:42 PM, ink said:

I for one think we could all* do a bit more reflecting on our own nation's history, rather than lashing out at the other guy's.

 

Quote

No lashing out here, Im just objecting to the hypocrisy, thats all. And frankly Im not going to have a withhold on expressing it. I was born a good 10-15 years after the British Empire died, I feel no need to feel guilt over its crimes, anymore than Roman can over Soviet ones.

The question is not what we all have done. All imperialist nations behaved the same way. The question is who is STILL doing it. Thats the point.

 

Edited September 16, 2023 by Stuart Galbraith

[Roman Alymov]

4 minutes ago, Stuart Galbraith said:

A submarine that may well have been in the process of being converted to fire Russian cruise missiles.  And besides, you defeat an opponent by making him hurt. Denying him 2 dry docks by blockign whats in them is scarcely to be seen as a bad idea.

Not sure if your media is covering it, but it is actually long-going debate in Russian internet as if Black Sea fleet is needed at all (since it is de-facto land locked, and Turkish fleet will always be stronger for natural reasons). Since Crimea returned to Russia in 2014, this debate intensified  - as now almost any corner within Black Sea is well within reach of missiles and aviation, no need for "floating pots" or "admiral carriers".  The role of Navy as "Cruise missile launch platforms" is artificial and was only caused by arms control agreements that are now dead, so there is hardly any reason not to put Kalibrs on regular trucks - it will be great cost-saving and also massive inprovement on flexibility/survivability of the system in general.

[Roman Alymov]

25 minutes ago, Stuart Galbraith said:

And that somehow makes it better does it?

I'm sorry but you have completely missed the point. Actually it was genocide of non-Chechen population by ethnic Chechens, that our current Gov is now doing their best to forget (as people responsible for allowing it are still alive and considered "founders of Independent Russia"). Read this for example ( yandex-translated from https://dzen.ru/a/XUNA2PxpqwCuJwvL  )

"How it was: the genocide of Russians in Chechnya
August 1, 2019
Starting from the late 70s-early 80s of the last century, anti-Russian sentiments began to gain strength in the Chechen-Ingush ASSR. With the active assistance of local Soviet-party clans, the core of future separatist organizations was created under the guise of national-cultural societies. At the same time, there was a "nationalization" of the administrative apparatus of the republic, law enforcement agencies and management structures. At the household level, the persecution of the Russian and Cossack population began to gain strength. Russian Russian slogans were increasingly heard: "Russians, get out", "Down with the Russian occupiers". Any crimes against Russians were practically not investigated, generating impunity on the part of nationalist forces. All this forced Russians to leave their places of ancestral residence, to leave for Central Russia. By the end of the 80s, this process had become a landslide. For example, in 1988 about 8 thousand Russians left the city of Grozny, in 1989 - 19 thousand, in 1990 more than 60 thousand already left. The ethnic composition of the Cossack villages of the Naursky, Shelkovsky, Grozny and Sunzhensky districts of the republic has changed significantly. In the 80s, active resettlement of Chechens from the mountainous regions of Chechnya began in these villages. By the early 90s, all conditions were created in Chechnya for the beginning of open terror against the Russian population. Firstly, in Grozny, the majority of leadership positions, especially in law enforcement agencies, were occupied by Chechens. Secondly, the ethnic composition of the cities (Grozny, Gudermes, Argun) has changed towards the predominance of "indigenous inhabitants". In the villages that originally belonged to the Cossacks, a significant percentage (from 20 to 50) of migrants from mountainous areas appeared. Thirdly, mass political and public organizations of anti-Russian orientation were created (the People's Front, the Vainakh Democratic Party led by Zelimkhan Yandarbiyev, the Islamic Way Party led by Bislan Gantamirov, the Green Movement (environmentalists) led by R. Gaitamirov and a number of others), which enjoyed the location of and the support of the local leadership. These organizations still had a few militant groups. And their connection with the "nationalized" bodies of the Ministry of Internal Affairs opened access to firearms. The mine was laid, the timer was ticking. And in 1991, the mine exploded. Chechen separatists were presented with OTR launchers, hundreds of UTSL and UTS, several aircraft (which were converted by Dudaev into light attack aircraft), including three MiG-17 and two MiG-15 fighters, six An-2 aircraft and two Mi-8 helicopters, by the new government led by Yeltsin. Dudaev 's government received:117 R-23 and R-24 aviation missiles, 126 R-60; tens of thousands of GS-23 aircraft shells, 42 T-62 and T-72 tanks, 34 BMP-1 and-2, 30 BTR-70 and BRDM, 44 MT-LB, 942 army vehicles. 18 Grad MLRS and more than 1,000 shells for them, 139 artillery systems, including 30 122-mm D-ZO howitzers and 24 thousand shells for them, as well as 2S1i2SZ self-propelled guns, MT-12 anti-tank guns were presented to the separatists. Dudaev also received five SAMs, 25 different types of missiles, 88 MANPADS; 105 pieces of S-75 missiles, 590 units of anti-tank weapons, including two ATGM "Competition", 24 ATGM "Fagot" complexes, 51 ATGM "Metis" complexes, 113 RPG-7 complexes. What can we say about such nonsense as 50 thousand small arms, or about 150 thousand live grenades! Chechnya was supplied with 27 wagons with ammunition, 1,620 tons of fuel and lubricants. The separatists received about 10 thousand sets of belongings of the former Soviet army, 72 tons of food, 90 tons of army medical equipment. Chechnya, well-armed by the Kremlin, which was playing giveaway with it, became the only subject of the Russian Federation that did not sign any version of the federal treaty at all. In fact, the conflict between the Chechen leadership and Moscow arose back in 1991, but it was not at all in differences regarding the fate of the Russian and Russian-speaking population of Chechnya. Yeltsin wanted only one thing – for Dudaev to acknowledge vassal dependence on him personally, Yeltsin, for Dudaev, roughly speaking, to admit that he burns and kills according to the "Yeltsin truth", after which Dudaev could do anything and as much as he wanted. However, the proud Dzhokhar did not give Yeltsin even a symbolic clue to "save face"... As for the fate of Russians and other peoples in Chechnya, Yeltsin did not care at all. Maybe, even on the contrary, he worried – but not at all like us. Yeltsin seemed to be pushing Dudaev to commit genocide, provoking Chechen extremists to commit genocide. For example, in 1991-1992, internal and federal troops were suddenly withdrawn from the Russian cities of Grozny and Gudermes, the Cossack villages of the Sunzhenskaya and Sredne-Nadterechnaya "lines". Why was this done? Especially considering that the Chechens were armed to the teeth before that? Isn't that provoking a crime? At that time, over 350 thousand residents of the northern half of Chechnya fell under genocide. When they say that Yeltsin "did not show the political will to really restore order in Chechnya," they are lying. Not only did he not restore order, he destroyed it with his own hands. The Sunzha-Grozny-Gudermes purge of 1991-1994 led to the extermination or expulsion of more than a quarter of a million people, which is 70% of the then Slavic population of the former autonomy. About 90 thousand Russian women and children were raped. Up to 10% of the "local Gyaur" are converted to "white slavery". The number of those killed during this period is estimated by the commissions of I. Shafarevich and S. Govorukhin at about 40 thousand.. Russian Russian and Russian-speaking children were killed, their necks were wrung, and the "Ichkerian" authorities and "internal affairs" qualified these victims as victims of "domestic injuries", according to eyewitnesses during the genocide of Russians and Russian-speakers.

The form of genocide against the non-Chechen population of Chechnya was "theoretically justified" in 1990-1992 in a number of his articles in the Chechen language (in Grozny newspapers) by Zelimkhan Yandarbiyev. The "Ichkerian" "first president" with his repeated public arguments on the topic of "wolves and sheep" actively incited the Vainakhs to ethnic cleansing of the Slavs. Movladi Udugov (Chechen "Doctor Goebbels" – according to the same J. Dudaeva) in the spirit of a football reporter in his radio and television comments openly "applauded" the very process of reducing the number of the Russian population in local Cossack villages," writes a competent expert. V. Nazarenko, a simple resident of Grozny, also testifies that the genocide was carried out by the Chechen authorities from above, that this is not some kind of amateur activity of unruly criminals: "I lived in Grozny until November 1992. Dudaev condoned the fact that crimes were openly committed against Russians, and no one from Chechens was punished for this." The famous gymnast, a native of Grozny, Olympic champion Larisa Turishcheva (who at one time moved to live in Kiev) lost all connection with her numerous Sunzha cousins and second cousins in 1992-1993. There is no doubt that a significant part of these relatives of Lyudmila Ivanovna were physically destroyed or taken into "white slavery". There are numerous evidences of mass forcible deprivation of housing stock by ethnicity during the Dudaev-Yandarbiev lawlessness (in 1991-1994) of many "Ichkerian" Slavs. Then about 100 thousand apartments and houses were then seized either by teipovs or criminal Chechen "activists". Moreover, almost exclusively (by 95%) among the Great Russians and Ukrainians who lived in the "Dudaevsky" sector of the former CHI ASSR! The rest was taken from local Armenians and Jews. Russian Russian Cossack chieftain Valery Khrabrikh testifies: "... the genocide of the Russian people in Chechnya" began in 1991, when Dzhokhar Dudayev came to power, and Russians were openly forced out of work and forced to leave their homes by threats and violence. During the exchange of views at the round table meeting at the Rosinformcenter, figures were given according to which 250 Russians were killed in Grozny alone in 1992, only according to extremely understated official data of the Ministry of Internal Affairs of the Republic, and 300 more people were missing. According to Oleg Makoveev, Chairman of the Board of the Russian community of the Czech Republic, from the beginning of the 90s until 1996, about 300 thousand Russian-speaking residents left Chechnya." Now an Israeli citizen, Jew Vitaly Eremenko in his memoirs "A little about himself and the city of Grozny" writes about it this way: "President Dudaev immediately released all criminals and murderers from prisons – allegedly to protect the young republic of Ichkeria (from whom, it was not specified). Attacks on military units began to seize weapons. For some reason, these parts could not protect themselves. And then Yeltsin withdrew military units from Grozny and from Ichkeria. But at the same time, all weapons, including armored vehicles and aircraft, for some reason remained - allegedly at Dudayev's request to Russia – in order to defend Ichkeria from external enemies – which, Yeltsin did not care… On the outskirts and in the center of the city, both at night and during the day, the cannonade began – the roll call of automatic and machine-gun bursts. Criminal and international terror against the population (including Chechens) began. Robberies and murders on trains. Trains stopped going through Grozny, and then the airport was closed." The flow of creepy stories is incredibly wide. Here are just some eyewitness accounts: A. Kochedykova, Grozny, recalls: "I left Grozny in February 1993 due to constant threats of action from armed Chechens and non-payment of pensions and wages. I left the apartment with all the furniture, two cars, a cooperative garage and left with my husband. In February 1993, Chechens killed my neighbor in the street, born in 1966. Her head was pierced, her ribs were broken, and she was raped. Elena Ivanovna, a war veteran, was also killed from an apartment nearby. In 1993, it became impossible to live there, they killed all around. Cars were blown up right with people. Russians began to be fired from their jobs for no reason. A man born in 1935 was killed in the apartment. Nine stab wounds were inflicted on him, his daughter was raped and killed right there in the kitchen." The head teacher at the 10th school Klimova and all her family members were killed - father, mother and two children. A 12-year-old girl was raped, she was searched for three days, found, but she lost her mind, became crazy. There are hundreds and thousands of such evidences of unbridled lawlessness, but all these crimes went unpunished. Russian youths began to be beaten on the streets of cities, then killed. In 1992, a new stage of the genocide began – local Chechens began forcibly evicting those who were richer from their apartments. On the walls of the houses, the most popular was a mocking inscription: "Do not buy apartments from Masha, they will still be ours." Here are just some randomly selected testimonies from an extensive collection of testimonies of internally displaced persons who fled Chechnya in the period from 1991-1995: M. Khrapova, who lived in Gudermes, told investigators: "In August 1992, our neighbor, R.S. Sarkisyan, and his wife, Z. S. Sarkisyan, were tortured alive burned." t. Alexandrova, from Grozny, recalled: "My daughter was returning home in the evening. Chechens dragged her into a car, beat her, cut her and raped her. We had to leave Grozny." V. Minkoeva, born in 1978, said: "In 1992, a neighboring school was attacked in Grozny. Children (seventh grade) were taken hostage and held for a day. There was a gang rape of the entire class and three teachers. In 1993, my classmate M. was stolen. In the summer of 1993, a man was shot by Chechens on the platform of the railway station in front of my eyes." And here are the words of Fr . Kalchenko: "My employee, a 22-year-old girl, was raped and shot by Chechens in front of my eyes on the street near our work." L. Hotel writes: "Russians were humiliated in all ways. In particular, in Grozny, a poster hung near the House of the Press: "Russians, do not leave, we need slaves." In their address to Russian President Boris Yeltsin, residents of Assinovskaya village of the Sunzhensky district wrote: "We, residents of Assinovskaya village of the Sunzhensky district, are forced to turn to you to provide us with effective assistance in protecting our civil rights, there is lawlessness against Russians, literally destruction, repetition of the genocide of 1921. Currently, we have neither a nation nor a Homeland, we are outcasts from our homes, although we and our ancestors have lived here for more than 200 years. During the last two years , with the arrival of the Chechen police on the territory of art . Assinovskaya is dominated by utter robbery, robbery, there is no public order, complete arbitrariness, anarchy, lack of control ...". Is it necessary to point out that the treatment of dozens of blatant facts of direct bloody genocide remained unanswered? But according to V. Doronina, "In the village of Nizhnedeviuk (Assinovka), armed Chechens raped all the girls and educators in an orphanage." Mothers taught their own sons how best to rape their Slavic classmates. Giving their daughters to the mountain villages in marriage from Grozny or Gudermes, the Chechens gave the groom's relatives as "wedding gifts", Russian slaves. Chechen "kids" actively terrorized Cossack villages, throwing stones at them, not even letting them look out into the street. Imams are a shame and a disgrace! – ignoring the precepts of religion, they seized Orthodox churches and converted them into mosques! It was precisely this "power" that the population of diasporas faced in 1991: Russians, Ukrainians, Armenians, Jews, etc. But before Dudaev, there were only about 17% of Chechens in Grozny (according to the 1989 census), and there were only about 43% of them in the republic! (Meaning, of course, data on the Chechen-Ingush ASSR, the Ingush also diluted the composition of the population). During the years of tsarist and Soviet power in Grozny, especially during the restoration of the oil industry in 1945-1956, it was the Russian, Slavic settlement majority that was formed, always traditionally protected by the Russian authorities. Russians worked in Grozny (because most Chechens are incapable of doing this at all). According to the 1989 census, 1 million 270 thousand people lived in the Chechen-Ingush Republic. Of these, there were 734,000 Chechens, 164,000 Ingush, 294,000 Russians, 15,000 Armenians, 13,000 Ukrainians, and numerous diasporas of Jews and Greeks. It is easy to assess the scale of the humanitarian catastrophe even before the start of military campaigns in Chechnya. Immediately after the self-liquidation of the Chechen-Ingush autonomy in 1991-1992. It was the Yeltsin government, and not Dudaev, that allowed the entire territory to be divided between two Vainakh ethnocratic regimes without taking into account the interests and rights of the indigenous Russian population of the steppe part. Such a decision – to divide the Russian villages between the Chechen and Ingush authorities – was made by the eternally drunk Boris Yeltsin on the initiative of the then Presidential Adviser on National Issues G. Starovoitova. But what are we, however, all the time about the sad? Here is a funny fact, similar to an anecdote: dissident Rostislav Polunov, who lived in Grozny, had to flee from Chechen hospitality, who in Soviet times served time for condemning the deportation of Chechens. As the old man Fonvizin would say – "here are the worthy fruits of malice.""

[urbanoid]

1 hour ago, Roman Alymov said:

I'm sorry but you have completely missed the point. Actually it was genocide of non-Chechen population by ethnic Chechens, that our current Gov is now doing their best to forget (as people responsible for allowing it are still alive and considered "founders of Independent Russia"). Read this for example ( yandex-translated from https://dzen.ru/a/XUNA2PxpqwCuJwvL  )

"How it was: the genocide of Russians in Chechnya
August 1, 2019
Starting from the late 70s-early 80s of the last century, anti-Russian sentiments began to gain strength in the Chechen-Ingush ASSR. With the active assistance of local Soviet-party clans, the core of future separatist organizations was created under the guise of national-cultural societies. At the same time, there was a "nationalization" of the administrative apparatus of the republic, law enforcement agencies and management structures. At the household level, the persecution of the Russian and Cossack population began to gain strength. Russian Russian slogans were increasingly heard: "Russians, get out", "Down with the Russian occupiers". Any crimes against Russians were practically not investigated, generating impunity on the part of nationalist forces. All this forced Russians to leave their places of ancestral residence, to leave for Central Russia. By the end of the 80s, this process had become a landslide. For example, in 1988 about 8 thousand Russians left the city of Grozny, in 1989 - 19 thousand, in 1990 more than 60 thousand already left. The ethnic composition of the Cossack villages of the Naursky, Shelkovsky, Grozny and Sunzhensky districts of the republic has changed significantly. In the 80s, active resettlement of Chechens from the mountainous regions of Chechnya began in these villages. By the early 90s, all conditions were created in Chechnya for the beginning of open terror against the Russian population. Firstly, in Grozny, the majority of leadership positions, especially in law enforcement agencies, were occupied by Chechens. Secondly, the ethnic composition of the cities (Grozny, Gudermes, Argun) has changed towards the predominance of "indigenous inhabitants". In the villages that originally belonged to the Cossacks, a significant percentage (from 20 to 50) of migrants from mountainous areas appeared. Thirdly, mass political and public organizations of anti-Russian orientation were created (the People's Front, the Vainakh Democratic Party led by Zelimkhan Yandarbiyev, the Islamic Way Party led by Bislan Gantamirov, the Green Movement (environmentalists) led by R. Gaitamirov and a number of others), which enjoyed the location of and the support of the local leadership. These organizations still had a few militant groups. And their connection with the "nationalized" bodies of the Ministry of Internal Affairs opened access to firearms. The mine was laid, the timer was ticking. And in 1991, the mine exploded. Chechen separatists were presented with OTR launchers, hundreds of UTSL and UTS, several aircraft (which were converted by Dudaev into light attack aircraft), including three MiG-17 and two MiG-15 fighters, six An-2 aircraft and two Mi-8 helicopters, by the new government led by Yeltsin. Dudaev 's government received:117 R-23 and R-24 aviation missiles, 126 R-60; tens of thousands of GS-23 aircraft shells, 42 T-62 and T-72 tanks, 34 BMP-1 and-2, 30 BTR-70 and BRDM, 44 MT-LB, 942 army vehicles. 18 Grad MLRS and more than 1,000 shells for them, 139 artillery systems, including 30 122-mm D-ZO howitzers and 24 thousand shells for them, as well as 2S1i2SZ self-propelled guns, MT-12 anti-tank guns were presented to the separatists. Dudaev also received five SAMs, 25 different types of missiles, 88 MANPADS; 105 pieces of S-75 missiles, 590 units of anti-tank weapons, including two ATGM "Competition", 24 ATGM "Fagot" complexes, 51 ATGM "Metis" complexes, 113 RPG-7 complexes. What can we say about such nonsense as 50 thousand small arms, or about 150 thousand live grenades! Chechnya was supplied with 27 wagons with ammunition, 1,620 tons of fuel and lubricants. The separatists received about 10 thousand sets of belongings of the former Soviet army, 72 tons of food, 90 tons of army medical equipment. Chechnya, well-armed by the Kremlin, which was playing giveaway with it, became the only subject of the Russian Federation that did not sign any version of the federal treaty at all. In fact, the conflict between the Chechen leadership and Moscow arose back in 1991, but it was not at all in differences regarding the fate of the Russian and Russian-speaking population of Chechnya. Yeltsin wanted only one thing – for Dudaev to acknowledge vassal dependence on him personally, Yeltsin, for Dudaev, roughly speaking, to admit that he burns and kills according to the "Yeltsin truth", after which Dudaev could do anything and as much as he wanted. However, the proud Dzhokhar did not give Yeltsin even a symbolic clue to "save face"... As for the fate of Russians and other peoples in Chechnya, Yeltsin did not care at all. Maybe, even on the contrary, he worried – but not at all like us. Yeltsin seemed to be pushing Dudaev to commit genocide, provoking Chechen extremists to commit genocide. For example, in 1991-1992, internal and federal troops were suddenly withdrawn from the Russian cities of Grozny and Gudermes, the Cossack villages of the Sunzhenskaya and Sredne-Nadterechnaya "lines". Why was this done? Especially considering that the Chechens were armed to the teeth before that? Isn't that provoking a crime? At that time, over 350 thousand residents of the northern half of Chechnya fell under genocide. When they say that Yeltsin "did not show the political will to really restore order in Chechnya," they are lying. Not only did he not restore order, he destroyed it with his own hands. The Sunzha-Grozny-Gudermes purge of 1991-1994 led to the extermination or expulsion of more than a quarter of a million people, which is 70% of the then Slavic population of the former autonomy. About 90 thousand Russian women and children were raped. Up to 10% of the "local Gyaur" are converted to "white slavery". The number of those killed during this period is estimated by the commissions of I. Shafarevich and S. Govorukhin at about 40 thousand.. Russian Russian and Russian-speaking children were killed, their necks were wrung, and the "Ichkerian" authorities and "internal affairs" qualified these victims as victims of "domestic injuries", according to eyewitnesses during the genocide of Russians and Russian-speakers.

The form of genocide against the non-Chechen population of Chechnya was "theoretically justified" in 1990-1992 in a number of his articles in the Chechen language (in Grozny newspapers) by Zelimkhan Yandarbiyev. The "Ichkerian" "first president" with his repeated public arguments on the topic of "wolves and sheep" actively incited the Vainakhs to ethnic cleansing of the Slavs. Movladi Udugov (Chechen "Doctor Goebbels" – according to the same J. Dudaeva) in the spirit of a football reporter in his radio and television comments openly "applauded" the very process of reducing the number of the Russian population in local Cossack villages," writes a competent expert. V. Nazarenko, a simple resident of Grozny, also testifies that the genocide was carried out by the Chechen authorities from above, that this is not some kind of amateur activity of unruly criminals: "I lived in Grozny until November 1992. Dudaev condoned the fact that crimes were openly committed against Russians, and no one from Chechens was punished for this." The famous gymnast, a native of Grozny, Olympic champion Larisa Turishcheva (who at one time moved to live in Kiev) lost all connection with her numerous Sunzha cousins and second cousins in 1992-1993. There is no doubt that a significant part of these relatives of Lyudmila Ivanovna were physically destroyed or taken into "white slavery". There are numerous evidences of mass forcible deprivation of housing stock by ethnicity during the Dudaev-Yandarbiev lawlessness (in 1991-1994) of many "Ichkerian" Slavs. Then about 100 thousand apartments and houses were then seized either by teipovs or criminal Chechen "activists". Moreover, almost exclusively (by 95%) among the Great Russians and Ukrainians who lived in the "Dudaevsky" sector of the former CHI ASSR! The rest was taken from local Armenians and Jews. Russian Russian Cossack chieftain Valery Khrabrikh testifies: "... the genocide of the Russian people in Chechnya" began in 1991, when Dzhokhar Dudayev came to power, and Russians were openly forced out of work and forced to leave their homes by threats and violence. During the exchange of views at the round table meeting at the Rosinformcenter, figures were given according to which 250 Russians were killed in Grozny alone in 1992, only according to extremely understated official data of the Ministry of Internal Affairs of the Republic, and 300 more people were missing. According to Oleg Makoveev, Chairman of the Board of the Russian community of the Czech Republic, from the beginning of the 90s until 1996, about 300 thousand Russian-speaking residents left Chechnya." Now an Israeli citizen, Jew Vitaly Eremenko in his memoirs "A little about himself and the city of Grozny" writes about it this way: "President Dudaev immediately released all criminals and murderers from prisons – allegedly to protect the young republic of Ichkeria (from whom, it was not specified). Attacks on military units began to seize weapons. For some reason, these parts could not protect themselves. And then Yeltsin withdrew military units from Grozny and from Ichkeria. But at the same time, all weapons, including armored vehicles and aircraft, for some reason remained - allegedly at Dudayev's request to Russia – in order to defend Ichkeria from external enemies – which, Yeltsin did not care… On the outskirts and in the center of the city, both at night and during the day, the cannonade began – the roll call of automatic and machine-gun bursts. Criminal and international terror against the population (including Chechens) began. Robberies and murders on trains. Trains stopped going through Grozny, and then the airport was closed." The flow of creepy stories is incredibly wide. Here are just some eyewitness accounts: A. Kochedykova, Grozny, recalls: "I left Grozny in February 1993 due to constant threats of action from armed Chechens and non-payment of pensions and wages. I left the apartment with all the furniture, two cars, a cooperative garage and left with my husband. In February 1993, Chechens killed my neighbor in the street, born in 1966. Her head was pierced, her ribs were broken, and she was raped. Elena Ivanovna, a war veteran, was also killed from an apartment nearby. In 1993, it became impossible to live there, they killed all around. Cars were blown up right with people. Russians began to be fired from their jobs for no reason. A man born in 1935 was killed in the apartment. Nine stab wounds were inflicted on him, his daughter was raped and killed right there in the kitchen." The head teacher at the 10th school Klimova and all her family members were killed - father, mother and two children. A 12-year-old girl was raped, she was searched for three days, found, but she lost her mind, became crazy. There are hundreds and thousands of such evidences of unbridled lawlessness, but all these crimes went unpunished. Russian youths began to be beaten on the streets of cities, then killed. In 1992, a new stage of the genocide began – local Chechens began forcibly evicting those who were richer from their apartments. On the walls of the houses, the most popular was a mocking inscription: "Do not buy apartments from Masha, they will still be ours." Here are just some randomly selected testimonies from an extensive collection of testimonies of internally displaced persons who fled Chechnya in the period from 1991-1995: M. Khrapova, who lived in Gudermes, told investigators: "In August 1992, our neighbor, R.S. Sarkisyan, and his wife, Z. S. Sarkisyan, were tortured alive burned." t. Alexandrova, from Grozny, recalled: "My daughter was returning home in the evening. Chechens dragged her into a car, beat her, cut her and raped her. We had to leave Grozny." V. Minkoeva, born in 1978, said: "In 1992, a neighboring school was attacked in Grozny. Children (seventh grade) were taken hostage and held for a day. There was a gang rape of the entire class and three teachers. In 1993, my classmate M. was stolen. In the summer of 1993, a man was shot by Chechens on the platform of the railway station in front of my eyes." And here are the words of Fr . Kalchenko: "My employee, a 22-year-old girl, was raped and shot by Chechens in front of my eyes on the street near our work." L. Hotel writes: "Russians were humiliated in all ways. In particular, in Grozny, a poster hung near the House of the Press: "Russians, do not leave, we need slaves." In their address to Russian President Boris Yeltsin, residents of Assinovskaya village of the Sunzhensky district wrote: "We, residents of Assinovskaya village of the Sunzhensky district, are forced to turn to you to provide us with effective assistance in protecting our civil rights, there is lawlessness against Russians, literally destruction, repetition of the genocide of 1921. Currently, we have neither a nation nor a Homeland, we are outcasts from our homes, although we and our ancestors have lived here for more than 200 years. During the last two years , with the arrival of the Chechen police on the territory of art . Assinovskaya is dominated by utter robbery, robbery, there is no public order, complete arbitrariness, anarchy, lack of control ...". Is it necessary to point out that the treatment of dozens of blatant facts of direct bloody genocide remained unanswered? But according to V. Doronina, "In the village of Nizhnedeviuk (Assinovka), armed Chechens raped all the girls and educators in an orphanage." Mothers taught their own sons how best to rape their Slavic classmates. Giving their daughters to the mountain villages in marriage from Grozny or Gudermes, the Chechens gave the groom's relatives as "wedding gifts", Russian slaves. Chechen "kids" actively terrorized Cossack villages, throwing stones at them, not even letting them look out into the street. Imams are a shame and a disgrace! – ignoring the precepts of religion, they seized Orthodox churches and converted them into mosques! It was precisely this "power" that the population of diasporas faced in 1991: Russians, Ukrainians, Armenians, Jews, etc. But before Dudaev, there were only about 17% of Chechens in Grozny (according to the 1989 census), and there were only about 43% of them in the republic! (Meaning, of course, data on the Chechen-Ingush ASSR, the Ingush also diluted the composition of the population). During the years of tsarist and Soviet power in Grozny, especially during the restoration of the oil industry in 1945-1956, it was the Russian, Slavic settlement majority that was formed, always traditionally protected by the Russian authorities. Russians worked in Grozny (because most Chechens are incapable of doing this at all). According to the 1989 census, 1 million 270 thousand people lived in the Chechen-Ingush Republic. Of these, there were 734,000 Chechens, 164,000 Ingush, 294,000 Russians, 15,000 Armenians, 13,000 Ukrainians, and numerous diasporas of Jews and Greeks. It is easy to assess the scale of the humanitarian catastrophe even before the start of military campaigns in Chechnya. Immediately after the self-liquidation of the Chechen-Ingush autonomy in 1991-1992. It was the Yeltsin government, and not Dudaev, that allowed the entire territory to be divided between two Vainakh ethnocratic regimes without taking into account the interests and rights of the indigenous Russian population of the steppe part. Such a decision – to divide the Russian villages between the Chechen and Ingush authorities – was made by the eternally drunk Boris Yeltsin on the initiative of the then Presidential Adviser on National Issues G. Starovoitova. But what are we, however, all the time about the sad? Here is a funny fact, similar to an anecdote: dissident Rostislav Polunov, who lived in Grozny, had to flee from Chechen hospitality, who in Soviet times served time for condemning the deportation of Chechens. As the old man Fonvizin would say – "here are the worthy fruits of malice.""

I assume that those events were before 'hijacking' of the Chechen cause by the 'Gulf islamists'. 

Quote

Yeltsin wanted only one thing – for Dudaev to acknowledge vassal dependence on him personally

Isn't that basically what Putin demands from Kadyrov?

Also, there are barely any ethnic Russians in Chechnya, the republic is quasi-independent and 95%+ Chechen, so it looks like the original goals to get rid of everyone else have been met. 

After reading that the old Russian nationalist call to 'stop feeding the Caucasus' sounds even better.

[Roman Alymov]

6 hours ago, urbanoid said:

I assume that those events were before 'hijacking' of the Chechen cause by the 'Gulf islamists'. 

Yes, all this events were just old-fashioned Causasus style practice - almost the same (but in lesses scale, as Cossack villagers were well armed and less Russians living unprotected in big industrial cities) happened during first Russian Civil War. By the time Gulf Islamists arrived, most of non-Chechen population was allready dead or fled.

6 hours ago, urbanoid said:

Isn't that basically what Putin demands from Kadyrov?

No idea what "Putin demands from Kadyrov" but practical measures, like creating industry in Chechnya etc. are indicating plans going far further than creating personal loyalty. By the way most of "Akhmad battalion" people are now not Chechens but people from all across Russia, so it is to some kind decreasing Kadyrov's influence as ethnic Chechen leader (rather making him politician of national level).

6 hours ago, urbanoid said:

Also, there are barely any ethnic Russians in Chechnya, the republic is quasi-independent and 95%+ Chechen, so it looks like the original goals to get rid of everyone else have been met. 

  I do not think it was sort of planned policy - just natural result of well-armed highland tribes vs. unarmed industrial urban population (by that time even hunting rifles were confiscated from local non-Chechens by police).

6 hours ago, urbanoid said:

After reading that the old Russian nationalist call to 'stop feeding the Caucasus' sounds even better.

Well, there is still a lot of suppressed/hidden hate against Chechens (and all caucasus population in general) among Russians. Probably it will take decades for it to be forgotten. Still, Apti Alautdinov, "Akhmad" commander and now deputy commander of all 2nd Army Core (in Lugansk area) is one of handful of Russian Army commanders who was praised by Strelkov (who mostly openly dislike Chechens, after two decades of fighting them personally).

P.S/. Navalny in his initial career as Russian ethnonationalist was trying to ride "Enough feeding Caucasus" slogan, but mostly failed  - so turned "anti-corruption activist". In Ukraine, people of this sort (like Andrey "White leader" Beletsky*, founder of Azov) were more sucessful in becoming part of political mainstream.

* Beletsky is formed of Bely ("White") rute, so sort of game of words explaining his nickname.

Edited September 16, 2023 by Roman Alymov

[glenn239]

8 hours ago, Stuart Galbraith said:

A submarine that may well have been in the process of being converted to fire Russian cruise missiles. 

The bottleneck on the Russian side is cruise missiles, not launchers.