Jump to content

War in Ukraine, assorted opinions


mandeb48

Recommended Posts

13 hours ago, ink said:

The Diego Garcia example was brought up in response to a specific post that insinuated Russian expansion was somehow unique. It isn't/wasn't, of course, and I see no reason to avoid pointing that out just to dodge claims of whataboutery.

There has been a lot of material online (and on here too) recently claiming that Russia has usurped a lot of land that doesn't naturally belong to it. It has obviously done that (mostly a long-ass time ago) and so have other powers. Saying so doesn't, in my opinion, detract from criticisms of the current invasion.

I believe we're all smart enough to hold more than one thought in our heads concurrently.

 

Because a possibly illegal expropriation and eviction of tenants is exactly the same in kind and scale to an unprovoked act of aggression that's caused at lesat tens of thousands of military casualties and thusands of civilian deaths both from indisciminate bombing and deliberate murder.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 432
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

19 minutes ago, R011 said:

Because a possibly illegal expropriation and eviction of tenants is exactly the same in kind and scale to an unprovoked act of aggression that's caused at lesat tens of thousands of military casualties and thusands of civilian deaths both from indisciminate bombing and deliberate murder.

You know, it really would serve you better to go back and read the original discussion because just latching on to the end of it like this really is unlikely to lead anywhere.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

41 minutes ago, R011 said:

 an unprovoked act of aggression that's caused at lesat tens of thousands of military casualties and thusands of civilian deaths both from indisciminate bombing and deliberate murder.

Though widely ignored in western media the UN released an interesting report a few days ago.

 

https://meduza.io/en/news/2023/09/04/un-commission-says-it-does-not-yet-have-sufficient-evidence-to-conclude-genocide-is-taking-place-in-ukraine

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just now, mkenny said:

Though widely ignored in western media the UN released an interesting report a few days ago.

 

https://meduza.io/en/news/2023/09/04/un-commission-says-it-does-not-yet-have-sufficient-evidence-to-conclude-genocide-is-taking-place-in-ukraine

I never said anything about genocide.  Any reason why you decided to bring it up in response to my post or are you just trying to deny or minimize the death toll and causes?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

28 minutes ago, ink said:

You know, it really would serve you better to go back and read the original discussion because just latching on to the end of it like this really is unlikely to lead anywhere.

Actually, I've been following the attempts by some here to morally equate Western actions with the Russian invasion of Ukraine.

Edited by R011
Link to comment
Share on other sites

19 minutes ago, R011 said:

Actually, I've been following the attempts by some here to morally equate Western actions with the Russian invasion of Ukraine.

And what have you concluded?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 9/5/2023 at 5:24 PM, bojan said:

No, Russia is not immune to criticism, it is just that critics should look at their own yard sometimes.

I will argue that the West has brought self-loathing and self shaming to unheard of peaks. Everyday my family and self are bombarded with how awful we have been.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 minutes ago, Colin said:

I will argue that the West has brought self-loathing and self shaming to unheard of peaks. Everyday my family and self are bombarded with how awful we have been.

Have you never met any liberal Jews... Or Germans... Or Serbs?

Fact is, a lot of that loathing (self or otherwise) is part of the damage done to the West's image by foreign adventures like Iraq, Syria, Libya (need I go on?). What? Did you think all that would go unnoticed (at home or abroad?)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, ink said:

Have you never met any liberal Jews... Or Germans... Or Serbs?

Fact is, a lot of that loathing (self or otherwise) is part of the damage done to the West's image by foreign adventures like Iraq, Syria, Libya (need I go on?). What? Did you think all that would go unnoticed (at home or abroad?)

Funny enough all those countries you mentioned had "foreign adventures" of their own. The majority of the west can't even recall what we did in Libya, likley can't find Syria on a map and have no idea about the complexities of the events around Iraq.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, Colin said:

Funny enough all those countries you mentioned had "foreign adventures" of their own. The majority of the west can't even recall what we did in Libya, likley can't find Syria on a map and have no idea about the complexities of the events around Iraq.  

And yet it's percolated through to them somehow. The mistrust of government, the vague belief that "we're imperialist", the sense that people are being lied to... All that and more is also waiting for Russia, of course.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, Colin said:

Funny enough all those countries you mentioned had "foreign adventures" of their own. The majority of the west can't even recall what we did in Libya, likley can't find Syria on a map and have no idea about the complexities of the events around Iraq.  

Right, so we did something to some brown folks somewhere.  Didn't go well.  Ops, killed a half of mil and  broke their country.  Probably meant well though.  Oh, well what's for dinner?   

And then you wonder why the RoW doesn't gas about your opinion anymore. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 minutes ago, Strannik said:

Right, so we did something to some brown folks somewhere.  Didn't go well.  Ops, killed a half of mil and  broke their country.  Probably meant well though.  Oh, well what's for dinner?   

And then you wonder why the RoW doesn't gas about your opinion anymore. 

The only time the world cared about the opinion of Canada was roughly 1960-1970. What I find amusing is how the ROW likes to point out how terrible the West is , while doing the exact same things they say they hate about us.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just now, Colin said:

The only time the world cared about the opinion of Canada was roughly 1960-1970. What I find amusing is how the ROW likes to point out how terrible the West is , while doing the exact same things they say they hate about us.

You did take this too literally.  We only take Canadians seriously on the hockey ring 😁

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, Colin said:

The only time the world cared about the opinion of Canada was roughly 1960-1970. What I find amusing is how the ROW likes to point out how terrible the West is , while doing the exact same things they say they hate about us.

Well, ROW is not pretending to be operastors of "rules based order" all actoss "jungle" from "garden" position of moral superiority, so it is quite logical. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 9/1/2023 at 2:56 PM, glenn239 said:

AFAIK, you have expressed zero concern around here over horrific Ukrainian losses in a year and a half, so it's hard to take at face value your statement of concerns to Russian losses.  If you did not wish to have your motives questioned, perhaps in the future you should take care to make more posts supporting posters here that are appalled at Ukraine's conduct towards its own troops, and not heap insult on posters expressing concern at what appears to be massive Ukrainian losses?   

My last response to you, because Ssnake has asked the question of me quite pointedly.

Your reading of my posts over the last 18 months has been either incomplete or characterised by the same lack of comprehension that most of your posts demonstrate.

I have stated at least a couple of times that there are no positive outcomes to this war, regardless of who "wins". If the tone and content of those posts didn't penetrate the pure densium that sits between your ears, I doubt that anything else will, so for the last time, just fuck right off, Glenn, you weak-arsed trolling shitstain.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 9/6/2023 at 7:57 AM, ink said:

The Diego Garcia example was brought up in response to a specific post that insinuated Russian expansion was somehow unique. It isn't/wasn't, of course, and I see no reason to avoid pointing that out just to dodge claims of whataboutery.

There has been a lot of material online (and on here too) recently claiming that Russia has usurped a lot of land that doesn't naturally belong to it. It has obviously done that (mostly a long-ass time ago) and so have other powers. Saying so doesn't, in my opinion, detract from criticisms of the current invasion.

I believe we're all smart enough to hold more than one thought in our heads concurrently.

 

If we're putting a statute of limitations on past expansionist behaviour, when is the threshold date?

The UK is in a phase of post-Empire territorial stability, having divested, through various means, nearly all former "possessions". One could argue, but it's not a close analogy, that the collapse of the CIS is the Russian equivalent, but if we're extending analogies, when did the UK last invade a hostile neighbour, in comparison to current Russian behaviour? We should, for once, leave aside whether June 1944 counts as a hostile invasion, despite what we say about the French, we love them really.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 9/6/2023 at 10:18 PM, R011 said:

I never said anything about genocide.  Any reason why you decided to bring it up in response to my post or are you just trying to deny or minimize the death toll and causes?

It's another mkenny strawman. Join the club.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

43 minutes ago, DB said:

If we're putting a statute of limitations on past expansionist behaviour, when is the threshold date?

The UK is in a phase of post-Empire territorial stability, having divested, through various means, nearly all former "possessions". One could argue, but it's not a close analogy, that the collapse of the CIS is the Russian equivalent, but if we're extending analogies, when did the UK last invade a hostile neighbour, in comparison to current Russian behaviour? We should, for once, leave aside whether June 1944 counts as a hostile invasion, despite what we say about the French, we love them really.

What hostile neighbour? Apart from wanting to decide their own future, the Ukrainians were not hostile towards Russia as a country.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I was trying to avoid pedantry about WW2 counter invasions, decided that it wasn't going to work the way I'd written it without explicitly mentioning it and discounting it myself, then forgot to remove "hostile".

I suppose, on reflection, I could have used "unjustified" or "unprovoked", but those would also be contentious to some.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, DB said:

If we're putting a statute of limitations on past expansionist behaviour, when is the threshold date?

The UK is in a phase of post-Empire territorial stability, having divested, through various means, nearly all former "possessions". One could argue, but it's not a close analogy, that the collapse of the CIS is the Russian equivalent, but if we're extending analogies, when did the UK last invade a hostile neighbour, in comparison to current Russian behaviour? We should, for once, leave aside whether June 1944 counts as a hostile invasion, despite what we say about the French, we love them really.

If post-WWII population expulsions aren't allowed according to the quite strict rules you've set out, and it has to be a "neighbour", then the UK is indeed completely innocent.

However, if invasions are still in, I'd quite like to raise you Iraq and Afghanistan, please. If unprovoked attacks fit the rules, could I also please include Libya?

However, on reflection, you've moved the goalposts. The original discussion was sparked by someone posting a map that implied Russia is somehow uniquely immoral because of its territorial expansions throughout history. All of my subsequent posts were intended to show that this implied immorality is nothing unique.

Why would I bother? Because I'm sick of the morally superior tone of some posters who (while they clearly don't) should most certainly know better.

Finally, I'm happy to exclude all pre-WWII stuff for the sake of the discussion but would like to note two things: 1) the original map included Russian expansion going back to the 16th century, and 2) in my book, consolidating gains you've made before this arbitrary cut-off, or trying to do so but failing, is equally morally dubious as making or attempting to make new gains*.

 

* So, for example, Britain's attempt to put down the Mau Mau Rebellion is no less brutal or ghastly just because it failed to prevent Kenyan independence. Nor is it somehow morally superior, in my opinion, to a "landgrab".

Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 hours ago, DB said:

...<snip>...I have stated at least a couple of times that there are no positive outcomes to this war, regardless of who "wins". ...<snip>...

This statement is a whopper and requires correction.  At this point there appears to be no positive outcomes for Ukraine in this conflict.   There you are correct.  But for Russia that is not the case.   There are many ways this conflict can end in which Russian power, economy, prestige, and geopolitical position will have been decisively enhanced.  

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×
×
  • Create New...