Panther rebuild project in Poland

[Sardaukar]

30 minutes ago, Stuart Galbraith said:

I suppose what he is really saying is 'We have made lots of money on the back of the Tiger since 2003, and no, we arent going to reinvest that money into refurbishing the tank with new parts to keep it operating'.

And what is original on the Tiger anyway? Its been rewired. Its on its third engine, uprated from the one it was captured with. So they dont want to wreck the original Torsion bars. Ok, make some new ones, take the originals out and put them back in stock. Want to keep the original drive sprockets. Ok, make some new ones, and put them on. There is nothing else they are going to have to worry about other than stress cracks, and a mig welder is your friend. Its hardly like they go rallying with it.

Bovington does a lot right, but there is quite a lot of what it does that is just plain weird and bloody annoying. Im kind of glad I dont subscribe to their newsletter anymore.

 

Reminds me of Finnish saying: "This is my grandfather's axe, only handle and blade has been changed during years!"

[Stuart Galbraith]

Yeah, we have a similar one about 'Triggers broom'.

 

[old_goat]

1 hour ago, Stuart Galbraith said:

I suppose what he is really saying is 'We have made lots of money on the back of the Tiger since 2003, and no, we arent going to reinvest that money into refurbishing the tank with new parts to keep it operating'.

Actually, he was talking about the Panzer IIIL too, not just the Tiger. And if I remember correctly, he said that the PIII will be decommissioned earlier than the Tiger. 

 

1 hour ago, Stuart Galbraith said:

There is nothing else they are going to have to worry about other than stress cracks,

Well, the engines. But still I dont think there should be anything to worry about there. Unlike lots of modern shitty car engines, these were designed to be repairable, no matter what country. Soviet, German, American, all of them. Almost everything can be replaced and repaired. As I said earlier, if there is an original part in good condition, it can be copied and easily remanufactured on CNC machines. Dont know if you follow the Weald foundation's Sdkfz.222 rebuild projects, but they had an engine with damaged cylinder heads. They took off the good one and copied it. Also there were cast parts that they copied successfully.

[Stuart Galbraith]

It's getting easier to cast things through 3d printing. It's proven incredibly useful casting cylinder blocks for locomotives, I sure there are applications for afv restoration.

[DogDodger]

5 hours ago, old_goat said:

I completely disagree with this way of thinking. If a certain part, manufactured lets say in 2023 is exactly the same as the old part from 1942, then who cares? If that is the cost of keeping the tank in running order, then Im totally fine with that. Modern CNC machines can do wonders, there is no such thing anymore that an old component is irreplaceable as long as one original example remains in existence. Sure it is not cheap, but not prohibitively expensive either. I think it is absolutely feasible to produce even complete new engines, like a Maybach, Ford GAA, R&R Meteor, or anything. Its just about money. Sure, its historical value will not be the same, but it still pays tribute to the original design and the people who were working on it in the past.

I'd be down with that, and keep hoping to see it happen: Catalog the original parts and replace with modern copies. Throwing an 8V71T into a Grant and calling it a day would have me disappointed if I showed up to see it drive around, though.

[Stuart Galbraith]

Well we have just seen an Me262 replica fitted with modern engines. A Mosquito rebuild, constructed with modern glue. Im not sure why a tank should be any different, particularly one with bloody terrible reliablity like 3rd Reich tanks generally had.

Bovington... they have a difficult job to do, and I dont mean to criticise them. But when you see what a cash cow the Tiger has been, I dont see any way they can just park it up. I can see the logic with a WW1 tank, which has armour like paper, and not really well cast steel, held together by rivets. Extending the same logic to a 50 ton tank, which they can produce parts for is, to say the least, curious logic. I know it took them the better part of 20 years to restore, but that does strike me as folly.

[Damian]

Some more news. Recently in Poland a Bergepanther wreck was found. It was recently transported to Warsaw, and right now it will be cleaned, preserved, and if it will possible, it's rebuild process will start.

 

[Stuart Galbraith]

Supposedly they dragged out the remnants of a Panzer IV and a Sdkfz 251, bu they were in even worse shape. Nice ind though, Ausf D hulls must be rarer than hens teeth. As there is so much gone, Id be tempted to turn it back into a tank, particularly if was at Kursk.

[old_goat]

7 hours ago, Stuart Galbraith said:

Well we have just seen an Me262 replica fitted with modern engines. A Mosquito rebuild, constructed with modern glue.

Aircraft... I have a different opinion about them. When I see a news about ww2 aircraft restored to flying condition, it always saddens me. Because it means that poor airplane's days are numbered. Sooner or later, they WILL crash. It is completely inevitable. And then there is no rebuilding. It is lost forever. Not long ago we lost a Hurricane. Previously a B-17. Damn, so few of them remain! When do people realize that these old planes should NEVER EVER fly again? When the last one is crashed and gone? Building replicas is the only acceptable solution I think. 

 

 

[Damian]

5 hours ago, Stuart Galbraith said:

Supposedly they dragged out the remnants of a Panzer IV and a Sdkfz 251, bu they were in even worse shape. Nice ind though, Ausf D hulls must be rarer than hens teeth. As there is so much gone, Id be tempted to turn it back into a tank, particularly if was at Kursk.

At the moment we have 3 Panthers in Poland. 1x Ausf A that will be fully restored, 1x incomplete and badly damaged Ausf A or G hull and Warsaw, and 1x Ausf D Bergepanther hull that might be or might not be restored. Perhaps there might one more Panther in some private museum.

[Stuart Galbraith]

46 minutes ago, old_goat said:

Aircraft... I have a different opinion about them. When I see a news about ww2 aircraft restored to flying condition, it always saddens me. Because it means that poor airplane's days are numbered. Sooner or later, they WILL crash. It is completely inevitable. And then there is no rebuilding. It is lost forever. Not long ago we lost a Hurricane. Previously a B-17. Damn, so few of them remain! When do people realize that these old planes should NEVER EVER fly again? When the last one is crashed and gone? Building replicas is the only acceptable solution I think. 

 

 

Well, we are into well over 50 years of the BBMF at this moment, so well meaning though your remarks are, there is just a little  weary cynicism there.

TBF, I can see your point. I loathe one offs flying. For example there was the Northrop flying wing demonstrator which was restored to flight and crashed. There was a prototype P63 that took years to restore to flight, and as destroyed just months later in a middair with a B17. So yes, entirely see your point. In my view we have got so good at restoring aircraft now, it probably doesnt matter to fly less rare aircraft. There was a video I saw the other day of a B17 rebuild occuring in the US of the remnants of 'Liberty Belle', so these things can come back.

And when they are rebuilt, they are effectively new aircraft. For example, there is a lancaster restoration underway in East Kirby, and looking at what they are doing, it will be effectively a new aircraft when they are done. Whcih is sad, but then as part of the process they are restoring to taxiable condition a 'french' lancaster which is much more complete. There are still plenty of pattern aircraft  lancasters left.

 

 

[old_goat]

2 hours ago, Stuart Galbraith said:

In my view we have got so good at restoring aircraft now, it probably doesnt matter to fly less rare aircraft. There was a video I saw the other day of a B17 rebuild occuring in the US of the remnants of 'Liberty Belle', so these things can come back.

My point doesnt change in case of "less rare" aircraft. Lets say a P-51 Mustang, relatively lots of them survive. But I still say they should never fly again. First, the life of the pilot is always in danger. No matter how well the aircraft is restored, these are always risky to fly. Second, the historical value. Each individual plane has a history. They are still incredibly valuable, even if its pilot didnt even fire a shot in ww2. Im not saying that these artifacts should only collect dust in a museum. There are options what to do with them. Take them to an airshow. Fire up the engine. Let them roll in front of the crowd under own power. But for actual flying, that would be exclusively for replicas. 

[old_goat]

2 hours ago, Damian said:

At the moment we have 3 Panthers in Poland. 1x Ausf A that will be fully restored, 1x incomplete and badly damaged Ausf A or G hull and Warsaw, and 1x Ausf D Bergepanther hull that might be or might not be restored. Perhaps there might one more Panther in some private museum.

Is there a progress report about the restoration of the Ausf.A? 

[Stuart Galbraith]

56 minutes ago, old_goat said:

My point doesnt change in case of "less rare" aircraft. Lets say a P-51 Mustang, relatively lots of them survive. But I still say they should never fly again. First, the life of the pilot is always in danger. No matter how well the aircraft is restored, these are always risky to fly. Second, the historical value. Each individual plane has a history. They are still incredibly valuable, even if its pilot didnt even fire a shot in ww2. Im not saying that these artifacts should only collect dust in a museum. There are options what to do with them. Take them to an airshow. Fire up the engine. Let them roll in front of the crowd under own power. But for actual flying, that would be exclusively for replicas. 

Any plane is potentially risky to fly. Embrace the risk.

 

[Damian]

1 hour ago, old_goat said:

Is there a progress report about the restoration of the Ausf.A? 

Right now they are restoring engine and transmission. Majority of internal components are also already restored or during process, but not installed before engine and transmission are completed. Owner of that Panther estimates 2-3 years to complete all work.

[nitflegal]

On 9/30/2023 at 10:50 AM, Stuart Galbraith said:

I suppose what he is really saying is 'We have made lots of money on the back of the Tiger since 2003, and no, we arent going to reinvest that money into refurbishing the tank with new parts to keep it operating'.

And what is original on the Tiger anyway? Its been rewired. Its on its third engine, uprated from the one it was captured with. So they dont want to wreck the original Torsion bars. Ok, make some new ones, take the originals out and put them back in stock. Want to keep the original drive sprockets. Ok, make some new ones, and put them on. There is nothing else they are going to have to worry about other than stress cracks, and a mig welder is your friend. Its hardly like they go rallying with it.

Bovington does a lot right, but there is quite a lot of what it does that is just plain weird and bloody annoying. Im kind of glad I dont subscribe to their newsletter anymore.

 

I'm not sure that's completely accurate.  When I was at Bovigton's storage building last spring 131 came up as part of conversation and they way it was described to me is that it was shaking itself apart.  It isn't just the engine, it's torsion bars, steering linkages, fuel tanks are leaking, welds are breaking, etc.  They run the thing and then spend weeks trying to duct tape it together.  Things were bad enough that they allowed it to be used for Fury directly for the rental fee to keep it running but also because they had the film crew cover the repairs to make it running well enough again for the movie.  They mentioned it would take something similar to the Littlefield Panther restoration to get it in reasonable shape and thet was a 7-10 million dollar restoration (in 2008 dollars) that took a dedicated team 7 years to complete.  They just don't have the resources.  131 is their cash cow, they want the thing running and getting revenue!

[Stuart Galbraith]

Is it really that bad?

I must admit, they did have a hell of a job with the ABRO getting the job done, not least an ourside contractor supplying incorrect ball bearings and wrecking a perfectly good engine. I didnt know the rest of it was such a dogs breakfast.

[nitflegal]

On 10/4/2023 at 2:42 AM, Stuart Galbraith said:

Is it really that bad?

I must admit, they did have a hell of a job with the ABRO getting the job done, not least an ourside contractor supplying incorrect ball bearings and wrecking a perfectly good engine. I didnt know the rest of it was such a dogs breakfast.

That's how it was described at the  least.  It's old and beat up any everything from washers to larger parts have to be hand made and the tank wasn't exactly babied for the decades before it got restored.  Plus, I think of how much work and effort it takes to keep a M4 going and those things have spare parts (at least until recently) extremely available.  Run it for a couple of hours on one day and spend a week reparing it.  If something designed for easy maintenance and logevity with available parts is that much work, I shudder to think how much effort is required to keep a luxury design going that even back when new required vastly more time and effort to keep in good shape.  

[old_goat]

An "interesting" attitude towards restoration, from Bovington...

At the end of the video, the guy tries to explain why they do not want to restore the Luchs to a runner. Quite pathetic I think. The vehicle is in a very good condition its a crime not to restore it. The guy says, that restoration would mean that some parts will be replaced, and that "destroys its originality"... Pure BS... It is correct that certain parts need to go. But what are these? Well... Crumbling, disintegrating seals, gaskets, worn out bearings, ancient, brittle wire insulation, and of course millenia old, dried out grease... Highly doubt any of these represents historic value. We can argue that original paint is... But I dont think it is a big sacrifice. Especially that it seems like only the interior is original. One more point needs to be considered. OK, they dont want to restore it to preserve an apparent "originality". The problem is, eventually, they will absolutely have to do it. For some components of the tank, it will be too late then. Ancient dried out seals and gaskets, other rubber parts, insulations do not resist moisture as much as new ones. Slowly, but surely, humidity will enter places where it can do great damage. So in my opinion, its better to lose some (extremely minor amount) of the "originality" of the tank now, than worry about the consequences of the lack of restoration/maintenance later. 

 

 

[Stuart Galbraith]

In the end, Bovington is a business. If the allow all their ww2 kit to grind to a halt because of this argument, you wonder where they are going to replace the sums that come in via Tiger day or other running days. Ww1 kit has become dormant for understandable reasons, and they survived that. I do wonder if the lack of running German equipment will be seen the same way. Even their Chieftains inevitably  are going to get harder to maintain.

It's not like these are the mona lisa we are asking them to run. There are other Tigers, there are other Panzer IIIs. Nothing they have running, doesn't exist several times over static in other museums.

[Mike1158]

To say that consumables should not be replaced is a bit of a faux pas, how many of those so called original washers on the Luchs for example, were there when it came off the p[roduction line?

 

3d printing will enable certain parts to be made but that will require initial investment that 'aint peanuts.  Wopuld a big company reduce the cost for advertising?  Sure but only so far.   The rest has to come from somewhere and visitor numbers at the tank museum are pretty low right now.  Not enough of a draw for larger numbers is my guess.

[old_goat]

1 hour ago, Stuart Galbraith said:

In the end, Bovington is a business. If the allow all their ww2 kit to grind to a halt because of this argument, you wonder where they are going to replace the sums that come in via Tiger day or other running days.

Maybe Im wrong, but in my opinion, Bovington lacks perspective. They stuck with these Tiger days and such, but its the same (more or less) every time. I certainly dont see any new stuff, at least what is theirs. Other museums around the world arent stagnating like them. The french restored lots of stuff recently, the St.Chamond was probalby the most impressive, even though lots of its components arent original. The australians are also full on projects. In Poland there are also lots of restorations. In Russia, Kubinka also slowly but surely do their things. And of course they have that little gem that is called Museum of Russian Military History, in Padikovo... EVERYTHING they have is in perfect running order!  

As you said, Bovington is a business. But stagnation usually leads to bad things. If they dont change their mindset, sooner or later they will run out of things to show. Fist german stuff, then british, and in the end, it is quite likely they will have to stop Shermans too. 

[old_goat]

14 minutes ago, Mike1158 said:

 

3d printing will enable certain parts to be made but that will require initial investment that 'aint peanuts.  Wopuld a big company reduce the cost for advertising?  Sure but only so far.   The rest has to come from somewhere and visitor numbers at the tank museum are pretty low right now.  Not enough of a draw for larger numbers is my guess.

Well, the Luchs seems to be in a very good condition. If I have to guess, not much needs to be replaced/remanufactured. Sure, gaskets, seals, bearings. But those are the cheap items, most you can easily buy. 

[Stuart Galbraith]

I haven't been in years, so I can't comment. From what I see online, it looks impressive. I ask how it can possibly  continue if they aren't going to reinvest in their stock. Yes, the priority should be British. Yet you can't tell the story of a matilda II without demonstrating a Panzer III.

They could clearly reactivate the panther or Jagdpanther. Others have done so with far more damaged vehicles. They can't even claim they are historically significant. They were built postwar for the British Army.

[nitflegal]

7 hours ago, old_goat said:

Maybe Im wrong, but in my opinion, Bovington lacks perspective. They stuck with these Tiger days and such, but its the same (more or less) every time. I certainly dont see any new stuff, at least what is theirs. Other museums around the world arent stagnating like them. The french restored lots of stuff recently, the St.Chamond was probalby the most impressive, even though lots of its components arent original. The australians are also full on projects. In Poland there are also lots of restorations. In Russia, Kubinka also slowly but surely do their things. And of course they have that little gem that is called Museum of Russian Military History, in Padikovo... EVERYTHING they have is in perfect running order!  

As you said, Bovington is a business. But stagnation usually leads to bad things. If they dont change their mindset, sooner or later they will run out of things to show. Fist german stuff, then british, and in the end, it is quite likely they will have to stop Shermans too. 

Probably true.  I got the impression when I was there that they were very much on a shoestring budget and still getting finacially ba k on their feet after 2020/2021 and a lot of the renovation during Covid was driven by funding of WoT and what they dictated, which is why a lot of the tanks i wanted to see (eg, A43 Black Prince, AC1 Sentinel, etc) were shoved into the conservation building where they used to be on museum display.  I wonder how much money they have to throw at multi-year restorations?  For now at least Tiger Day is a consistent sell-out so the push isn't there.  I guess looking at it from a revenue standpoint, would a running Luchs drive additional revenue that would counterbalance the costs?  Dunno.