Panther rebuild project in Poland

[Damian]

So in a small private Armor Museum in Kłanino (Polish : Muzeum Pancerne w Kłaninie) it's owner Mateusz Deling is now rebuilding a PzKpfw. V Ausf. A Panther. Vehicle at the moment is at the static display, but in 2 to 3 years the owner and his team project that this Panther will be in running condition. I had a great pleassure to visit this museum and meet with it's owner.

[sunday]

It looks great.

[alejandro_]

Great work, any idea where the Panther came from (unit, when was discovered and so on)? 

[sunday]

Also, why the divisionary flash of the 12. SS-Panzer-Division "Hitlerjugend".

[Damian]

That Panther as found in a scrapheap in France. Owner of that museum bought it and decided to paint it that way. Rebuild process what long and expensive. They needed to even cut it in some places and weld again.

Edited July 21, 2023 by Damian

[Stuart Galbraith]

Ausf A, so clearly not one of those assembled for the British. I suppose conceivably it was one used by the French Army at some point, which would explain its survival.

[Damian]

8 hours ago, Stuart Galbraith said:

Ausf A, so clearly not one of those assembled for the British. I suppose conceivably it was one used by the French Army at some point, which would explain its survival.

Current owner told me that it was very close that it would not survive. Anyway hopefully we will have a driving Panther in Poland soon. The one that was rebuild by Littlefield and now is in USA was actually found in Poland, it is a happy and sad story. Happy it was rebuild, sad that it was illegaly taken out of Poland, because law clearly states that what is diggen out belongs to Polish State.

We have at least two more Panthers here in Poland, one in Warsaw in Polish Armed Forces Museum, and other somewhere else. But both are heavily damaged and incomplete hulls, there are no chances to rebuild these two.

Edited July 22, 2023 by Damian

[Stuart Galbraith]

Yeah, I did feel bad that some of your history was 'liberated' that way. And there were large chunks of the turret that were not even utilized. Saw a picture the other day of what was presumably littlefields back lot with large chunks of Panther turret in it. Pretty cavalier way to behave with an historical item, even if it wasnt restorable.

[Damian]

2 minutes ago, Stuart Galbraith said:

Yeah, I did feel bad that some of your history was 'liberated' that way. And there were large chunks of the turret that were not even utilized. Saw a picture the other day of what was presumably littlefields back lot with large chunks of Panther turret in it. Pretty cavalier way to behave with an historical item, even if it wasnt restorable.

Fortunately private and state owned museums in Poland are getting better and better. Where that Panther is, owner have several vehicles in running condition including a StuG III.

Muzeum Broni Pancernej in Poznań, have a rare StuG IV in running condition.

They also have PzKpfw. III Ausf. N in rebuild process.

A Jagdpanzer 38(t).

And a lot more stuff, also Polish Armed Forces Museum will open it's new main building 13th August 2023 just before Polish Armed Forces Day in 15th August.

 

This is really great because now they can show more of their artifacts, Polish Armed Forces Museum have over 300K of artifacts in their collection, most of them never shown to the public.

[DogDodger]

Are they planning on using the Maybach or a modern substitution?

[Damian]

13 minutes ago, DogDodger said:

Are they planning on using the Maybach or a modern substitution?

Yes they have original Maybach engine and also original transmission, they only need to repair them and bring back to working condition.

[alejandro_]

3 hours ago, Damian said:

Current owner told me that it was very close that it would not survive. Anyway hopefully we will have a driving Panther in Poland soon. The one that was rebuild by Littlefield and now is in USA was actually found in Poland, it is a happy and sad story. Happy it was rebuild, sad that it was illegaly taken out of Poland, because law clearly states that what is diggen out belongs to Polish State.

We have at least two more Panthers here in Poland, one in Warsaw in Polish Armed Forces Museum, and other somewhere else. But both are heavily damaged and incomplete hulls, there are no chances to rebuild these two.

Thank you, is it ok to share the photos?

[Damian]

Just now, alejandro_ said:

Thank you, is it ok to share the photos?

Yeah, feel free, all photos here are made by me. They were made in Muzeum Pancerne w Kłaninie (Armor Museum in Kłanino) and in Muzeum Broni Pancernej w Poznaniu (Armor Museum in Poznań).

[JWB]

On 7/22/2023 at 1:35 PM, Damian said:

Yeah, feel free, all photos here are made by me. They were made in Muzeum Pancerne w Kłaninie (Armor Museum in Kłanino) and in Muzeum Broni Pancernej w Poznaniu (Armor Museum in Poznań).

If you have facebook:

https://www.facebook.com/groups/1606389576042042

[Erik1]

Great  

Looks like we might see quite a few new running big cats in the coming years, with a Tiger 1 in Saumur and a King Tiger in Switzerland.

Edit: there's a Tiger in Australia that will be running, but with ahistoric engine and transmission.

Edited July 26, 2023 by Erik1

[Rick]

On 7/22/2023 at 2:35 PM, Damian said:

Yeah, feel free, all photos here are made by me. They were made in Muzeum Pancerne w Kłaninie (Armor Museum in Kłanino) and in Muzeum Broni Pancernej w Poznaniu (Armor Museum in Poznań).

A most remarkable quality in the restoration of those vehicles you pictured. The workmanship looks outstanding. 

[Damian]

On 7/26/2023 at 12:13 PM, Rick said:

A most remarkable quality in the restoration of those vehicles you pictured. The workmanship looks outstanding. 

Quality is something very important in Poland. And museum pieces demands highest quality that is possible.

BTW in Warsaw, right now Polish Armed Forces Technology Museum is refurbishing ISU-122.
 

 

[Stuart Galbraith]

Panther that was restored for Australian  armour museum. This are the guys that did it.

 

[DogDodger]

13 minutes ago, Stuart Galbraith said:

Panther that was restored for Australian  armour museum. This are the guys that did it.

That museum's unafraid to throw modern powerplants into historic vehicles for the sake of being able to have a runner (e.g., Chevrolet V8s in their light tank M5; 8V71T in their Grant). Glad to see their Panther retained its original engine.

[Stuart Galbraith]

Well, considering the mad max films, they probably are just thinking ahead.

 

[DogDodger]

7 minutes ago, Stuart Galbraith said:

Well, considering the mad max films, they probably are just thinking ahead.

 

Good point.

[Mikel2]

1 hour ago, DogDodger said:

That museum's unafraid to throw modern powerplants into historic vehicles for the sake of being able to have a runner (e.g., Chevrolet V8s in their light tank M5; 8V71T in their Grant). Glad to see their Panther retained its original engine.

If it's done without butchering the vehicle, in a way that can be reversed in the future, I'm all for it.

[Stuart Galbraith]

That's pretty much my stance on it too.

[old_goat]

20 hours ago, Mikel2 said:

If it's done without butchering the vehicle, in a way that can be reversed in the future, I'm all for it.

100% agree.

Irreversibly modifying an original vehicle is obviously bad, but in my opinion, excessively clinging to originality isnt good either. I remember not long ago, some guy from Bovington was talking about the future of the Tiger and also the Panzer III. It was a quite depressing speech, he was lamenting about the difficulty of keeping these tanks in running order, he was worried about that some components are wearing out, and there is no replacement for these. So, according to him, the Tiger 131 only has a few more years, and then it will never run again. Then he said they will not install newly manufactured parts, because then the tank will lose its "originality"... I completely disagree with this way of thinking. If a certain part, manufactured lets say in 2023 is exactly the same as the old part from 1942, then who cares? If that is the cost of keeping the tank in running order, then Im totally fine with that. Modern CNC machines can do wonders, there is no such thing anymore that an old component is irreplaceable as long as one original example remains in existence. Sure it is not cheap, but not prohibitively expensive either. I think it is absolutely feasible to produce even complete new engines, like a Maybach, Ford GAA, R&R Meteor, or anything. Its just about money. Sure, its historical value will not be the same, but it still pays tribute to the original design and the people who were working on it in the past.

[Stuart Galbraith]

I suppose what he is really saying is 'We have made lots of money on the back of the Tiger since 2003, and no, we arent going to reinvest that money into refurbishing the tank with new parts to keep it operating'.

And what is original on the Tiger anyway? Its been rewired. Its on its third engine, uprated from the one it was captured with. So they dont want to wreck the original Torsion bars. Ok, make some new ones, take the originals out and put them back in stock. Want to keep the original drive sprockets. Ok, make some new ones, and put them on. There is nothing else they are going to have to worry about other than stress cracks, and a mig welder is your friend. Its hardly like they go rallying with it.

Bovington does a lot right, but there is quite a lot of what it does that is just plain weird and bloody annoying. Im kind of glad I dont subscribe to their newsletter anymore.