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Posted
1 hour ago, glenn239 said:

Are you pro-Prigozhen or are you anti-Prigozhen?  

 I do not see Prigozhin as anything but businessmen of questionable moral qualities (while, no doubt, personally brave man) who is playing own games, including bloody ones, while using populist slogans. 

     He is just side effect of pro-Western* bureoucracy, not free actor. He is not military commander also. Take away  pro-Western bureoucracy, and Prigozhin will disappear.

*  -as i have probably explained in another threads, "pro-Western" does not mean person is sleeping with Magna Carta under his pillow and knows US Consitution by heart - but that this person is using convenience of West for his personall profit - both by siding with stronger political force (as West untill very recently was the main force in Russian political game) and by using Western financial and legal institutions for what they are best tailored for: to loot own country and move assets to the safety of "rule of law".

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Posted

And now for something different:

On the 26th of June 2023 the Russian Imperial Family has elected 38-year old Prince Rostislav Romanov to be its leader.

Prince Rostislav will now speak authoritatively for the remnants of the Romanov family, and be it’s official representative.

Long live the Tsar! 😅

Posted
2 hours ago, Roman Alymov said:

 I do not see Prigozhin as anything but businessmen of questionable moral qualities (while, no doubt, personally brave man) who is playing own games, including bloody ones, while using populist slogans. 

     He is just side effect of pro-Western* bureoucracy, not free actor. He is not military commander also. Take away  pro-Western bureoucracy, and Prigozhin will disappear.

But I thought the Defense Minister that Priggy Stardust wanted to remove was pro-Western?    Now Prigozhin is pro-Western?  And not a free actor?  That literally makes no sense, as only Prigozhin chose to try for a coup. 

Posted

I too could use an "Appeasement of the West Party (TM)" flow chart. It sometimes seems like Girkin is the only non member.

Posted
2 hours ago, glenn239 said:

But I thought the Defense Minister that Priggy Stardust wanted to remove was pro-Western?    Now Prigozhin is pro-Western?  And not a free actor?  That literally makes no sense, as only Prigozhin chose to try for a coup. 

Please let me address you to my earlier post

 

Posted
50 minutes ago, Josh said:

I too could use an "Appeasement of the West Party (TM)" flow chart. It sometimes seems like Girkin is the only non member.

He is not elite member at all. But, true, i could count on fingers of one hand people whom he is niot critical of.

30-minutes long speech by Lukashenko with his version of events https://t.me/MoskalkovSB/3403

Posted
9 hours ago, glenn239 said:

But I thought the Defense Minister that Priggy Stardust wanted to remove was pro-Western?    Now Prigozhin is pro-Western?  And not a free actor?  That literally makes no sense, as only Prigozhin chose to try for a coup. 

He was a western asset.

Posted
42 minutes ago, Stuart Galbraith said:

Asset is putting it a little too enthusiastically. Asset implies they could actually be useful. :D

 

The CIA sure believed this, but the unity of the Russian people turned their play into a failure.

Posted

Yeah, looking suspiciously furry in a public area. :D

Can you Imagine Sergei Eisenstein filming this? Furries taking the lead in the storming of the Kremlin? Im almost tempted to throw that into an AI image generator to see what I get. :)

 

Posted
1 hour ago, Yama said:

5/ Carrying a weapon was not the reason for their arrest.

Well was not any weapon but an "ancient" one. Got them for misuse of historic relics or alternately insulting modernity by not at the few least having AKM. 

Posted
14 hours ago, Roman Alymov said:

Please let me address you to my earlier post

 

It's not occuring to you that Prigozhin was making a real coup attempt based on his own free will and unique circumstances that had nothing to do with anyone controlling him?

Posted
8 minutes ago, glenn239 said:

It's not occuring to you that Prigozhin was making a real coup attempt based on his own free will and unique circumstances that had nothing to do with anyone controlling him?

I've come to the conclusion he was attempting a coup. You don't shoot down your nation's helicopters while advancing on the capital if you are not. I think he underestimated who would support him (no one significant in the military or political class) and over-estimated his own importance. 

Over-estimation of self is common when you have cameras on you all the time and yes-men surrounding you telling you how neat you are. It is the affliction of the selfie generation, and not limited to the west.

 

Posted
On 6/27/2023 at 6:47 AM, BansheeOne said:

Here was everybody fretting "Putin is a steely-eyed nuclear-armed madman, you don't want to back him into a corner by supporting Ukraine (like fighting an aggressor on your own territory is "backing him into a corner), who knows what he might do?" Well, now we know: Take a plane out of town, let some crony strike a deal on his behalf, and hand out pardons like blowjobs from a crack whore.

More information is coming out on Putin's attitudes, not of the variety that you suppose,

https://www.msn.com/en-ca/news/world/lukashenko-says-putin-wanted-to-wipe-out-prigozhin-during-mutiny-attempt/ar-AA1d933q?ocid=msedgdhp&pc=U531&cvid=1b097202d45c445aa9e31e6ad03dd3f9&ei=12

While describing his Saturday conversation with Putin, Lukashenko used the Russian criminal slang phrase for killing someone, equivalent to the English phrase to "wipe out."

"I also understood: a brutal decision had been made (and it was the undertone of Putin's address) to wipe out" the mutineers, Lukashenko told a meeting of his army officials and journalists on Tuesday, according to Belarusian state media.

 

Posted
23 minutes ago, glenn239 said:

It's not occuring to you that Prigozhin was making a real coup attempt based on his own free will and unique circumstances that had nothing to do with anyone controlling him?

As i have repetedly noted, Prigozhin is no way real commande or even "owner" of Wagner - more like a spokesperson. Of course he could attempt to take control of events, but i do not think it was done without at least attempts to coordinate his actions with real decision makers (or their competitors). It seems like Prigozhin was trying to make his own rethoric both attractive to regular patriotic Russians and at the same time allowing him to "sell" his riot to pro-Western elite.

     Please let me translate from Strelkov ( https://t.me/strelkovii/5774 )

"The fact that Prigozhin was not personally connected with the West (I admit it is possible, although it is not a fact) does not mean that his accomplices from among Putin's "friends" (oligarchs) and President's administration are not connected with West. With the amount of property they have abroad, it would be frankly ridiculous to assume that there are no connections. In any case, the agenda that was voiced by the Hero of Russia E.V.Prigozhin on the eve of the rebellion was entirely "pro-Western" and included ending the war on Western terms."

And from https://t.me/georgy_fedorov/1914

"Passions have almost subsided and some friends ask me the question: "Why did the left and patriotic forces not support Prigozhin? After all, there was a "unique chance" to change the social course, etc."

I answer briefly.

Firstly, the very fact of a coup and mutiny does not guarantee a change of course. There are a lot of such examples in history.

Secondly, we do not fully know who was behind the mutiny, and what goals the conspirators set. We have not seen a political platform. Prigozhin's populism does not count. Prigozhin had never before outlined his political views other than his own "business interests". I know that six months ago some people close to him proposed to create a political wing of Wagner, to which he categorically refused. He stressed that he is not interested in politics and he will continue his activities in the usual format.

Thirdly, if the coup had succeeded, then, most likely, we would have received a frankly criminal dictatorship, which first of all cleaned up all leftists and ideological patriots. The front would have been guaranteed to collapse almost immediately, and we would have received a powerful military defeat with all the consequences. And then the situation would develop according to a catastrophic scenario. For everyone. An attempt to disperse Wagner by force could have escalated into a civil war and the complete destruction of Russia.

In conclusion, I can say that the murder of pilots and soldiers of the regular army is an action beyond the bounds. This should be severely punished. I don't sympathize at all with Shoigu and other representatives of the ruling class, but I can say that the people behind Prigozhin in organizing this rebellion are a hundred times worse. This is evidenced by my rich experience and some leaking information.

But there is one positive point in all this. It became clear to everyone that the system had reached a dead end, that a change in socio-economic and political course was inevitable, that serious opportunities were opening up for us to claim power. And we need to prepare for this big fight.

P.S. As for the rebels, who, according to Putin, are still heroes, I want to ask a question: are Vlasov and the Vlasovites also heroes? After all, they also fought the enemy at the beginning."

Posted

ATV accident, usually it has involved windows... Tho, there was one boating accident...

Posted

Some interesting analysis, no idea if it is true or not. 
 

Quote

 

Imagine watching a speedrun for a game you've never played. such a playthrough will look weird and confusing due to a lot of skipped scenes and quest lines, and general absence of crucial lore.

that quest line which hasn't been covered in news and which lead into prigozhin's spectacle started one year ago exactly, with the so-called "Tairagate" (Тайрагейт).

there is an important difference between media policy in russia and ukraine. oligarchs in ukraine use media to weaponize public against each other as a prerequisite for a compromise. oligarchs in russia use media to inform the public about a compromise they come to behind the closed doors. the public is free to discuss it but their voices are basically feedback with no direct impact on the decision making process.

when a russian oligarch uses media to fight another russian oligarch, that is perceived as fais pas - it is not prohibited. but it is seen as throwing stones at a glass house.

one year ago, right-wing elites associated with yeltsin's clan, mod, gru, ukrainian pro-moscow bourgeoisie, fascists, and monarchists single-handedly decided to throw away this gentlemen's agreement. they bought all war correspondents and bloggers, linked them with their media (ort, tsargrad, mk, kp...), connected with ukrainian "pro-russian" influencers (shariy, montyan...) and started to spin their messages. some of them were old good "russia for russians", "stop to feed caucasus", "kadyrov is a savage". but some were new: "protectors are worse than ukrainians". and the longer, the more sinister twist they had: "protectors are parasites", "protectors are insects", "burn the protectors". but since all that was done under the pretence of naive and innocent patriotism and accompanied with videos about helping soldiers and vets, it was difficult to critisize them.

the situation worsened, and a year ago exploded, when this network organized a massive media campaign against exchange of Medvedchuk and Kadyrov's relative for Nazi pows.

 

 

Posted
1 hour ago, glenn239 said:

More information is coming out on Putin's attitudes, not of the variety that you suppose,

https://www.msn.com/en-ca/news/world/lukashenko-says-putin-wanted-to-wipe-out-prigozhin-during-mutiny-attempt/ar-AA1d933q?ocid=msedgdhp&pc=U531&cvid=1b097202d45c445aa9e31e6ad03dd3f9&ei=12

While describing his Saturday conversation with Putin, Lukashenko used the Russian criminal slang phrase for killing someone, equivalent to the English phrase to "wipe out."

"I also understood: a brutal decision had been made (and it was the undertone of Putin's address) to wipe out" the mutineers, Lukashenko told a meeting of his army officials and journalists on Tuesday, according to Belarusian state media.

 

That sounds more in character.

Posted
10 minutes ago, Stuart Galbraith said:

There is also this, currently unconfirmed.

 

I'll await confirmation; it seems like a weird time for a general to be enjoying motor sports...

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