Polish Air Defence Modernisation

[DB]

MALA NAREW, PILICA, etc.

If you're not Polish, you'll have to take Google Translate's word for it, but that is a Polish-specific version of the Land Ceptor launcher as part of the MALA NAREW contract, on a Jelcz carrier 8x8, engaging 3 separate targets in rapid succession, using a Polish radar.

[urbanoid]

 

[sunday]

I like those bulk buys of Poland. Very much.

[urbanoid]

Also signed today:

 

[lucklucky]

So the missiles are all CAMM-ER. Interesting.

[urbanoid]

6 hours ago, lucklucky said:

So the missiles are all CAMM-ER. Interesting.

We're upgrading all layers of air defense, so both CAMM and CAMM-ER will be used. For VSHORAD 'Little Narew' (Pilica+) it would be CAMM, for SHORAD Narew - CAMM-ER. Or maybe we'll just mix them, the launchers are the same. For the warships likely CAMM-ER and potentially CAMM-MR. 

[urbanoid]

About CAMM-MR

Quote

The new missile, desginated CAMM-MR, is supposed to complement the family of CAMM and CAMM-ER missiles in intergrated air defence systems under the Miecznik, Narew and Pilica+ projects. It is intended to allow for engagement of targets at distances of 100 km, being a "low-cost" supplement to the PAC-3 MSE missiles used in the Wisła system.

According to the letter of intent, PGZ and MBDA UK committed themselves to develop a joint missile. CAMM-MR is to take into account the requirements of the Ministry of National Defence and be intended for use on land platforms as well as on ships, not only in Poland but also in Britain.

 

https://defence24.com/industry/mspo-2023-the-uk-and-poland-will-develop-a-new-anti-aircraft-missile

[BansheeOne]

So the CAMM equivalent to IRIS-T SLX, though that one's being advertised as having an 80 km range. It's impressive how fairly light SAMs are evolving into long-range missiles (also see the jump from Barak 1 to Barak 8 to Barak 8ER), even if at some point they probably have little to do with the original.

[DB]

On 9/5/2023 at 9:21 PM, sunday said:

I like those bulk buys of Poland. Very much.

Not as much as I do

[DB]

11 hours ago, BansheeOne said:

So the CAMM equivalent to IRIS-T SLX, though that one's being advertised as having an 80 km range. It's impressive how fairly light SAMs are evolving into long-range missiles (also see the jump from Barak 1 to Barak 8 to Barak 8ER), even if at some point they probably have little to do with the original.

Declared ranges are fairly mutable things, primarily because it depends on what the marketing department want to declare as a viable target at the advertised range. Americans are very good at declaring very long ranges based on the most interestingly extreme scenarios.

The English wikipedia article on IRIS-T SL/SLM/SLX is not clear on the guidance mechanism, interchanging radar guided and IR guided, mentioning a jettisonable nosecone. That would definitely provide improved kinematic performance, but obviously introduces a failure mode that might be embarrassing.

Is it the case that they are claiming that "radar guided" means using an external track generator plus the datalink for guidance and the IR seeker only for terminal homing? CAMM uses a terminal radar homing seeker, but otherwise uses a datalink and ground-based radar tracks.

The nomenclature for CAMM amuses me - it may seem odd to the observer that ER is shorter ranged than MR, until you realise that ER is the extended SHORAD CAMM, and MR is the MRAD CAMM (and even the definitions of VSHORAD/SHORAD and MRAD vary by marketing department, of course!.)

[sunday]

5 hours ago, DB said:

Not as much as I do

🤑

[BansheeOne]

8 hours ago, DB said:

The English wikipedia article on IRIS-T SL/SLM/SLX is not clear on the guidance mechanism, interchanging radar guided and IR guided, mentioning a jettisonable nosecone. That would definitely provide improved kinematic performance, but obviously introduces a failure mode that might be embarrassing.

German sources aren't particularly helpful either, just mentioning "a new dual-mode seeker".

I guess I could find out since there's an opening for a project leader IRIS-T SLM/SLX posted by Diehl, but it would entail moving all the way to the shores of Lake Constance. 😁

[DB]

I got severe sunburn and nearly heatstroke on the shores of Lake Constance. It was all for work, though. Lovely location, though.

[Josh]

It is weird that CAMM is being purchased if IBCS is going to be the backbone. Can that launcher be integrated to the US backbone? It seems weird to purchase IBCS (and Patriots) and then not buy a medium or short ranged system that integrates with it.

[urbanoid]

Of course Narew (CAMMs) will be integrated with IBCS.

[Josh]

I would have thought that difficult with a European system.

[urbanoid]

Quite a few radars in our new AD are domestic, the goal is to ultimately integrate absolutely everything, including V/SHORAD. F-35s and AWACS (we bought two small ones) too in the future. 

[Markus Becker]

9 hours ago, urbanoid said:

Quite a few radars in our new AD are domestic, the goal is to ultimately integrate absolutely everything, including V/SHORAD. F-35s and AWACS (we bought two small ones) too in the future. 

The Indian AD system or just an acronym? 

[urbanoid]

26 minutes ago, Markus Becker said:

The Indian AD system or just an acronym? 

No idea about any Indian systems, so we're likely talking about acronym.

[DB]

Very SHort Range Air Defence - VSHORAD

Here's a long list of UK MoD acronyms/initialisms.

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/227048/acronyms_and_abbreviations_dec08.pdf

There's also SHORAD - which is not Very.

Different organisations define these in different ways, with the UK generally using VSHORAD to include MANPADS (where the "S" is "System" normally) and typical "point" or "self-" defence applications, SHORAD with ability to protect close-in assets and then MRAD for "Medium" going out to the longer ranges. As I mentioned, the "MR" on CAMM seems to be aligning it with the "MRAD" banding, whereas CAMM-ER is "extended range CAMM", pushing it further towards the outer edges of "SHORAD".

Bearing in mind that CAMM is a more capable replacement for Sea Wolf and Rapier, both of which were "Point Defence" systems, and so "VSHORAD". CAMM's declared range exceeds Sea Wolf's, I don't recall what Rapier was supposed to be.

And for a nice bonus, you don't need to care how you spell "defence/defense" for the acronyms to remain the same!

[lucklucky]

Sea Wolf, Rappier were SHORAD with 8km . CAMM 25km  is outside it if the definition don't moves... CAMM-ER 40km+ is probably already at Sea Dart long range SAM initial version.

[DB]

As I said, the definition depends on what the marketing department is trying to sell, so different definitions will exist, but CAMM-ER is at the upper bounds of SHORAD, not Medium or long.

I don't think that the terms SHORAD or VSHORAD existed when Sea Wolf and Rapier were designed. Sea Wolf was designed for ship self protection, which was also called "point defence". Rapier, being a land system, was not described using the same terms but fits into the same category because it has similar effective range.

It's also possible that for the UK they fit MANPADS beneath the VSHORAD definition, rather than as part of it. There appears to be some reorganisation of definitions and PTs in this area.