The Titan Tragedy

[rmgill]

1 hour ago, shep854 said:

.

Agreed about all the other potential flaws, but after realizing how the hatch was secured, I would have bailed right there.

As Aaron pointed out, imagine bobbing on the surface and suffocating because the hatch.  Apollo I was also horrifying...

You could bob to the surface, get washed ashore and be in sight of a house with a light in and have no way out. 

[Stuart Galbraith]

17 hours ago, rmgill said:

I have seen and repeated the mantra that history doesn’t repeat, but it certainly rhymes. Here it looks like the words are incredibly close. 

Yes, but its categorised debris. This it would appear is uncorrelated, presumably new.

[rmgill]

I would trust Doug’s wooden submarine more. More escape methods. Better testing. More fail safes. 

 

Among other things the ballast dump didn’t require the entire group of passengers passengers to shift to one side. 
 

 

[rmgill]

3 minutes ago, Stuart Galbraith said:

Yes, but its categorised debris. This it would appear is uncorrelated, presumably new.

Titanic. 
Titan.

 

same place

 

poor safety

no safety

 

nature killed a bunch of people

nature killed all the people. 
 

hubris and disregard for eventualities

same

 

poor standards for emergency communications

same

 

disregard for past errors

same 

 

resulted in international laws on maritime safety for ships

will probably result in international laws for maritime safety for submarines  

 

[Stuart Galbraith]

Yes, I too had noted the similarities. Though the main difference would be that Titanic was actually well designed and built. It's main problem was it was operated by the clown police, aka White Star Line.

Needs international rules, the same was surface vessels and airliners do. I shudder to think of Elon Musk suddenly getting into the DSV market...

 

 

[Skywalkre]

2 hours ago, R011 said:

This may be nothing.  The whole area is a debris field or a bunch of them.

Watching a live press conference now.  The debris field is in an area where they know no Titanic wreckage would be and used to be clear.  They're now saying all are lost and it appears a catastrophic failure occurred likely around the time communication was lost.

[RETAC21]

55 minutes ago, Stuart Galbraith said:

Yes, I too had noted the similarities. Though the main difference would be that Titanic was actually well designed and built. It's main problem was it was operated by the clown police, aka White Star Line.

Needs international rules, the same was surface vessels and airliners do. I shudder to think of Elon Musk suddenly getting into the DSV market...

So, why exactly White Star was worse than say, Cunard? Titanic was built and manned above what was required of them by the law, which had made some assumptions on how ships sink which proved wrong. Note though, that should a ship drop by to rescue the passengers and crew, Titanic would be a footnote and some other ship would have to learn that lesson. 

[Stuart Galbraith]

2 minutes ago, RETAC21 said:

So, why exactly White Star was worse than say, Cunard? Titanic was built and manned above what was required of them by the law, which had made some assumptions on how ships sink which proved wrong. Note though, that should a ship drop by to rescue the passengers and crew, Titanic would be a footnote and some other ship would have to learn that lesson. 

White Star had a reputation  for accidents and collisions. First time out in RMS Olympic, Captain Smith rammed Hms Hawke for example. There were other examples in the company I gather.

Yes that's right, there was little wrong with Titanic, other than the lack of lifeboats. Dr Ballard in his Titanic book pointed out the damage she took would has sunk the QE2. It was slapdash operation by the crew that sank her. And Smith had a reputation as one of the better Captains in the company!

[Stuart Galbraith]

46 minutes ago, Skywalkre said:

Watching a live press conference now.  The debris field is in an area where they know no Titanic wreckage would be and used to be clear.  They're now saying all are lost and it appears a catastrophic failure occurred likely around the time communication was lost.

Yeah, found both ends of the pressure hull, so clearly a catastrophic  event.

[R011]

1 hour ago, Stuart Galbraith said:

Yeah, found both ends of the pressure hull, so clearly a catastrophic  event.

That's pretty definitive.  RIP to the victims.  At least it was very quick.

[Yama]

On 6/21/2023 at 12:18 PM, Stuart Galbraith said:

There are apparently 7 different systems to get to the surface. The easiest is the sandbags which can be dropped leaving just positive boyancy. They had a similar problem on Alvin when they had an electrical failure. They jettisoned the concrete ballast, voila, bobbed to the surface.

That this hasnt happened suggests major structural failure. For all we know the hammering might have been someone doing running repairs to a trawler.

Turns out you were correct. 'Banging noises' were something unrelated. Loss of communications marks the destruction of the sub.

Supposedly the sub had dissolvable attachments for ballast, which would have eventually automatically released the ballast even if the crew had been unconscious. So mere battery or control failure (which was speculated) would not have trapped the sub at the bottom - at least in theory.

Apparently the carbon fibre doesn't take stress cycles very well: but they were aware of it and the hull was rebuilt at least once before. Maybe their calculations were off after all, or then it was the window which broke...

[shep854]

 

[DKTanker]

6 hours ago, shep854 said:

.

Agreed about all the other potential flaws, but after realizing how the hatch was secured, I would have bailed right there.

As Aaron pointed out, imagine bobbing on the surface and suffocating because the hatch.  Apollo I was also horrifying...

Gus Grissom's Liberty Bell 7 sank because the hatch bolts were blown, NASA didn't want the astronauts to leave the capsule until they, NASA, were ready to let them out. Hence the hatch being bolted shut.  The Right Stuff guys then insisted on having a hatch that they could open for themselves, without having to resort to explosive bolts.  Thus the Apollo 1 capsule, as well as the earlier Gemini capsules had an inward opening hatch.  But here's the problem the three Apollo 1 astronauts had (which included Gus Grissom), they couldn't open the hatch because the capsule was pressurised, they had to wait for the pressure to drop.  In a sad ironic twist, had the astronauts not insisted on having an inward opening hatch, the Apollo capsule may have inherited the outward, explosive bolt closed, hatch, thus giving them a way to blow the hatch open and save their lives. 

[DKTanker]

5 hours ago, rmgill said:

You could bob to the surface, get washed ashore and be in sight of a house with a light in and have no way out. 

Because the support vessel sank thus being unable to recover the submersible?

[rmgill]

1 hour ago, DKTanker said:

Because the support vessel sank thus being unable to recover the submersible?

Because you got caught in a current and pulled away from the support vessel and suffered a total comms failure. Or the support vessel suffered it's own power/systems failure (lightning strike). Ships NEVER lose power and go adrift right? 

[rmgill]

1 hour ago, DKTanker said:

Gus Grissom's Liberty Bell 7 sank because the hatch bolts were blown, NASA didn't want the astronauts to leave the capsule until they, NASA, were ready to let them out. Hence the hatch being bolted shut.  The Right Stuff guys then insisted on having a hatch that they could open for themselves, without having to resort to explosive bolts.  Thus the Apollo 1 capsule, as well as the earlier Gemini capsules had an inward opening hatch. 

It's more complex than that. The Apollo pad test also had the Boost Protective Cover over the Apollo capsule, an outer heat shield hatch and an inner hatch. 

Apollo 1 had the issue of the high O2 environment AND the time to open the hatch which would not work with the pressure from the fire. Under good conditions it would take 60-90 seconds to open. Being on fire in a high O2 environment, in space suits working over head was not an ideal condition. 

The hatch had to have the necessary retention to avoid blowing out. The re-designed unified hatch design was much more complex. 

[DKTanker]

Just now, rmgill said:

It's more complex than that. The Apollo pad test also had the Boost Protective Cover over the Apollo capsule, an outer heat shield hatch and an inner hatch. 

Apollo 1 had the issue of the high O2 environment AND the time to open the hatch which would not work with the pressure from the fire. Under good conditions it would take 60-90 seconds to open. Being on fire in a high O2 environment, in space suits working over head was not an ideal condition. 

The hatch had to have the necessary retention to avoid blowing out. The re-designed unified hatch design was much more complex. 

Completely missing the point that all is not as simple as Monday Morning QBs wish it to be.  

Look, I'm not going to do the constant back and forth with you with goal post shifting to and fro, that's an arena you and Stuart really seem to enjoy.  What say you just ignore me and I'll ignore you.  Regardless, I'll ignore you.

[rmgill]

Fine Dave. Hatches for Space craft with slightly less than one atmosphere (14.6 psi)of pressure inside are just the same as submarines with hundreds of atmospheres of pressure outside. The titanic is at around 12,500 feet. Thats 378 atmospheres or 5,500 psi. 
 

 

Edited June 23, 2023 by rmgill

[Coldsteel]

9 hours ago, Yama said:

Turns out you were correct. 'Banging noises' were something unrelated. Loss of communications marks the destruction of the sub.

Supposedly the sub had dissolvable attachments for ballast, which would have eventually automatically released the ballast even if the crew had been unconscious. So mere battery or control failure (which was speculated) would not have trapped the sub at the bottom - at least in theory.

Apparently the carbon fibre doesn't take stress cycles very well: but they were aware of it and the hull was rebuilt at least once before. Maybe their calculations were off after all, or then it was the window which broke...

That's about what was to be expected, given the circumstances.

I was very surprised when they showed the hull construction being carbon fibre. I've got absolutely no expertise, but intuitively if there is any leakage path through any defect at that kind of pressure water is going to find it and start applying pretty much the full hydraulic load on the metal section the carbon fibre was wound around. That just looked kind of sketchy to me. On top, you know, everything else.

[RETAC21]

10 hours ago, Stuart Galbraith said:

White Star had a reputation  for accidents and collisions. First time out in RMS Olympic, Captain Smith rammed Hms Hawke for example. There were other examples in the company I gather.

Yes that's right, there was little wrong with Titanic, other than the lack of lifeboats. Dr Ballard in his Titanic book pointed out the damage she took would has sunk the QE2. It was slapdash operation by the crew that sank her. And Smith had a reputation as one of the better Captains in the company!

1) Olympic vs Hawke, not exactly, it was the other way around. The case was settled as it was because the RN couldn't be at fault, could it?

https://www.usni.org/magazines/proceedings/1911/december/collision-between-h-ms-hawke-and-r-m-s-olympic

2) other wrecks, no different from other lines, but note this list:

https://www.whitestarhistory.com/whitestarshipsthatsank the ships that didn't sink during wartime were:

Atlantic: 1873

Naronic: 1893

Suevic: 1907

Republic: 1909, but then, she was rammed, not her fault.

Titanic: 1912

Celtic: 1928

so there's 10 and 20 years between wrecks, which would be similar to current day airlines, for example.

3) Titanic crew: remember it was her maiden voyage? the crew could be blamed only for not making sure all lifeboats were full to capacity, but there was little else they could do.

Ice warnings weren't ignored and a Southerly course was ordered. In fact Titanic is the Southernmost iceberg collision recorded in the N. Atlantic.

In the same situation, any other sea officer would have done the same a Murdoch, with the same results. It's akin to trying to avoid a frontal car crash and ending hitting with the side, which nullifies airbags and such.

Of course, it's easy to blame the crew, more so if they are dead, and there are plenty of authors that do just that.

 

[RETAC21]

9 hours ago, R011 said:

That's pretty definitive.  RIP to the victims.  At least it was very quick.

So quick they wouldn't even note it.

[Stuart Galbraith]

Just now, RETAC21 said:

1) Olympic vs Hawke, not exactly, it was the other way around. The case was settled as it was because the RN couldn't be at fault, could it?

https://www.usni.org/magazines/proceedings/1911/december/collision-between-h-ms-hawke-and-r-m-s-olympic

2) other wrecks, no different from other lines, but note this list:

https://www.whitestarhistory.com/whitestarshipsthatsank the ships that didn't sink during wartime were:

Atlantic: 1873

Naronic: 1893

Suevic: 1907

Republic: 1909, but then, she was rammed, not her fault.

Titanic: 1912

Celtic: 1928

so there's 10 and 20 years between wrecks, which would be similar to current day airlines, for example.

3) Titanic crew: remember it was her maiden voyage? the crew could be blamed only for not making sure all lifeboats were full to capacity, but there was little else they could do.

Ice warnings weren't ignored and a Southerly course was ordered. In fact Titanic is the Southernmost iceberg collision recorded in the N. Atlantic.

In the same situation, any other sea officer would have done the same a Murdoch, with the same results. It's akin to trying to avoid a frontal car crash and ending hitting with the side, which nullifies airbags and such.

Of course, it's easy to blame the crew, more so if they are dead, and there are plenty of authors that do just that.

 

 

2 No, I said collisions and accidents, I didnt say sinkings. They had a reputation for being fast and loose in operation, and it was apparently well known at the time. Annoyingly I cant find the quote now, but as an operation, White Star seemingly had a safety culture akin to a Philipines airline.

3 Come on, thats not a strong argument. The officers were generally experienced on other ships, and If they cannot be faulted for not being in a sinking before, they can be blamed for not acting intelligently when presented with a simple problem. Not enough boats? Thats ok, we will send them only out half loaded! The chief designer Thomas Andrews chided Murdoch on this, and this again is a failing. HE shouldnt have had to. That was the Captains job. So where was the Captain, when he could have been supervising the evaculation?

Ice warnings werent Ignored? So when the marconi operator received a warning of pack ice ahead, what did he do? He blasted back 'Shut Up, Shut Up, im working cape race!' That was just a couple of hours before the collision. That warning never was passed on to the wheelhouse or the captain.

So they didnt have an adequate Ice warning (the captain could of course have asked the radio operator to keep an ear open for such warnings) they were running at full tilt into an area that time of year was full of ice, they had an inadquate watch out (who didnt even have Binoculars because someone lost the key to the cabinet they were stored in). You know, the real tragedy is they saw it at the last moment. If they hadnt seen the bugger at all, they would have run smack into it and the ship would have been saved. Even better the crew would have been sacked.

The only one I respect is Lightoller, not least beause he seemed to be the only one capable of thinking on his feet, but he also went to Dunkirk. If atonement for mistakes had to be made, he more than made up for it. But against him, he was a White Star apologist at the public inquiry. Not that it did him much good.

[RETAC21]

4 minutes ago, Stuart Galbraith said:

 

2 No, I said collisions and accidents, I didnt say sinkings. They had a reputation for being fast and loose in operation, and it was apparently well known at the time. Annoyingly I cant find the quote now, but as an operation, White Star seemingly had a safety culture akin to a Philipines airline.

3 Come on, thats not a strong argument. The officers were generally experienced on other ships, and If they cannot be faulted for not being in a sinking before, they can be blamed for not acting intelligently when presented with a simple problem. Not enough boats? Thats ok, we will send them only out half loaded! The chief designer Thomas Andrews chided Murdoch on this, and this again is a failing. HE shouldnt have had to. That was the Captains job. So where was the Captain, when he could have been supervising the evaculation?

Ice warnings werent Ignored? So when the marconi operator received a warning of pack ice ahead, what did he do? He blasted back 'Shut Up, Shut Up, im working cape race!' That was just a couple of hours before the collision. That warning never was passed on to the wheelhouse or the captain.

So they didnt have an adequate Ice warning (the captain could of course have asked the radio operator to keep an ear open for such warnings) they were running at full tilt into an area that time of year was full of ice, they had an inadquate watch out (who didnt even have Binoculars because someone lost the key to the cabinet they were stored in). You know, the real tragedy is they saw it at the last moment. If they hadnt seen the bugger at all, they would have run smack into it and the ship would have been saved. Even better the crew would have been sacked.

The only one I respect is Lightoller, not least beause he seemed to be the only one capable of thinking on his feet, but he also went to Dunkirk. If atonement for mistakes had to be made, he more than made up for it. But against him, he was a White Star apologist at the public inquiry. Not that it did him much good.

See, you are a victim of popular "history".

Travel by sea was still dangerous in the early XX century, all lines had accidents, in an era without radar and White Star was among the best, else it wouldn't be used by the era's elite, so "reputation" is something made up post-Titanic. Would you say the same of Cunard? after all Lusitania was travelling unescorted, at low speed and not zig zaggin in an area known to have German subs contrary to Admiralty instructions.

Re, the crew. Just the fact that you mix the Marconi operators with the crew shows that you are confused. Marconi operators weren't White Star employees, nor did they have the duty to cover the radio 24/7, which is why Californian was deaf. Ice warnings were passed on to the bridge, and they were acted on.

So the bridge crew didn't ignore the ice warnings, they heeded them, and the ship wasn't travelling at a particularly high speed for the conditions known to the bridge crew. As for the binoculars, they may not have helped at all, due to the conditions, a calm sea and a moonless night meant that the iceberg (if such it was, as it may have been banquise ice, even lower in the water) would have been a black mass against a black sea and would only be seen when Titanic lights started reflecting off it, ie, too late.

I wonder how do you know what Andrews told Murdoch, neither survived and Andrews wouldn't be in position to say anything at all to Murdoch, he was a passenger after all and called for advice... by the Captain:

"Captain Edward J. Smith had Andrews summoned to help examine the damage. Andrews and Captain Smith discussed the damage to the ship shortly after the collision and toured the damaged section of the ship, receiving several reports of the vessel's damage. Andrews determined that the first five of the ship's sixteen watertight compartments were rapidly flooding, more than the four that the vessel was supposed to withstand. He relayed this information to Captain Smith, adding that in his opinion, the vessel had only about an hour before foundering. He also informed Smith of the severe shortage of lifeboats on board the ship."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Andrews

Lightoller had a full life indeed, including the sinking of a submarine and the execution of its survivors, but on the Titanic he can be accused of running up (involuntarily) the body count up, by interpreting "Women and children first" as "Women and children ONLY". In the end, it wouldn't make much difference.

As has been documented to exhaustion, if you want to blame anyone for the Titanic, you need to blame the Board of Trade.

[Stuart Galbraith]

White Star had two different reputations. Among the elite, whom had little reason to doubt the luxury or the service on board, which im sure was exceptional. And from what ive read of its reputation among other lines, which was something less then excellent.

Yes, perfectly aware it was dangerous. But there is dangerous and slapdash. Cunard seems ultimately to have had a far better reputation, and you can see it today in that its called Cunard White Star, rather than White Star Cunard.

Oh, I know Marconi operators were employed via Marconi, it was right there in Ballards book IIRC. I also know that they are still subject to captains orders on board. If the Captain had said 'If you receive any more warnings, see I get them, even if you have to wake me up', ive little reason to doubt that they would have done, and events would have been different. But they werent given, and it didnt happen. And as it happens, we know the radio operator was up to cover the radio, otherwise he wouldnt have been telling other operators to shut up with all the ice warnings already.   In fact, lets be fair, the man did his job, right up till the end, which does him great credit. It was hardly his fault his captain, again, derelicted his duty by not giving him adequate instructions about what to do in the present conditions.

Ok, Ill give you that about Murdoch. Its in the film Titanic where Andrews accosts LIghtoller ( I misremembered) and tells him that the boats are going away half filled. I cant find the refrence to that, but Ive a feeling something similar is also in the film 'A Night to Remember'. It may also be in the book, but I cant find it right now. Of course neither murdoch nor Andews survived, but many passengers present certainly did, who owe Andrews for his presence of mind going about the ship urging them to get in the boats. So Ill concede that, and lets just say he certainly played a role in upping the number of people in the boats through his own efforts.

Interestingly I found a quote from the inquiry where Captain Smith told people to bring the boats back because they were half filled. To his credit, but again, why wasnt he present to make sure the buggers were going away filled in the first place? What precisely was he doing when all this was going on?

 

 

[RETAC21]

Again, more media character assasination. See here: https://www.encyclopedia-titanica.org/titanic-victim/edward-john-smith.html

"On the night of April 14, however, he attended a dinner party held in his honour by George Widener and his family. The party was attended by the cream of 1912 society as it was represented on the Titanic. However, Smith was possibly concerned that the ship was entering the ice zone about which he had received ample warnings during the weekend. He excused himself early and went to the bridge.

Charles Lightoller was keeping watch and discussed the temperature with Smith for a while. Smith told Lightoller to alert him immediately if he was at all concerned."

Because the top chain of command of the Titanic died, it is assumed they dallied about doing nothing, but that could be hardly the case as the evacuation was as orderly as it was possible given the circumstances. There was nothing they could do to save the ship, all measures were taken to call for help, and they went down with the ship trying to save more souls. Just what more can be asked from them?