The Allies and Russia in WW1 / WW2 and implications for today

[seahawk]

Considering some voices in the Russian social media sphere still show surprisingly positive attitudes towards Russian imperialism and also plain racism (example to follow in the text), I was wondering if that might be because there was no critical discussion about the wrongs of Russian imperialism nor about the Russian responsibility on the road to both World Wars.

Example of stunning racism.

Strelkov Igor Ivanovich #KRP
It is reported that the "peace mission" of African people ..., oh, that is, diplomats failed due to poor knowledge of geography. In the course of negotiations with Zelensky in Kiev, African canniba ... that is, politicians, without understanding, agreed to hold referendums in Kursk, Belgorod and Krasnodar under the control of UN troops, since they were told that these were "primordial Ukrainian lands."
When Vladimir Vladimirovich saw such a peace plan coordinated with Zelensky, he first ... agreed. But then I looked through the document more carefully, and saw that the last item was a "tourist trip to The Hague" for him personally. And finally changed my mind.
The Main Department of Internal Affairs of St. Petersburg also reports that during the visit of dear African guests, 3 white women and jewelry from a store visited by the delegation of the Cayman Islands disappeared without a trace, and a group of gypsy beggars from Nevsky Prospekt filed a complaint against the Prime Minister of the Desert Odicaria, stating that he intimidated them, deceived them, hypnotized them and lured out all the values earned by overwork. The prime minister, detained on the application, turned out to be a first-year student of the Moscow Institute named after P. Lumumba - L. Pubumba, who had been on academic leave for 15 years and worked as an alpha male in the Moscow Zoo all these years.
P.S. Let the representatives of the African continent not be offended by me, but respect for their "statesmen" involved in a fraudulent and treacherous operation hostile to my country, and even ugly and ridiculous in design and execution - I do not have a priori.

https://t.me/strelkovii/5533

So maybe it is time, especially in the English speaking world of historians, to focus more on Russian actions and influence and on how those helped to set the stage for both World Wars. For example: Imagine WW2 without the Molotov–Ribbentrop Pact.

Edited June 19, 2023 by seahawk

[Stuart Galbraith]

Wow. Strelkov really is 'special' isnt he.

I remember reading that around the time of the collapse of the USSR and the reemergence of Russia, at least one of the pre Revolution newspapers reemerged, namely 'Komersant'. They even used the pre revolutionary typeface for the headlines. The editorial said 'we apologise the delay of our latest issue, due to unavoidable reasons'.

My point is, there was quite a thought provoking article I read that discussed this (Im damned if I can recall which book) that said it was just one more example of  Russia, lacking the Socialist model for its political ethos, eventually settled back on its pre revolutionary worldview. IE, Imperialism redux. Russia is very much a victim of 'big projects' of this kind. After they were denied the title of Third Rome, they eventually jumped avidly into another divine project they could share with the world, that is Bolshevism. So jumping headlong into vaguely defined, projects that define them on the world stage, is really very Russian. I guess you could at a stretch see it as a cause of WW1, Ie, 'we are defenders of the slavic world, so we must defend Serbia'.

Their actions in Africa (which to be honest, arent really THAT much different from what the French have been doing since the 1880's), and their actions around their own borders, fit neatly into that perception. Russians talk about history going in cycles, and in that respect, even the Cold War, can be seen in an imperialist perspective. 'I win territory/influence/bases, you lose'.

Yes, you can also detect the presence of this mindset in the UK, or at least you could before Afghanistan. And im sure Roman would love to draw parallels with Iraq, and fair enough, there certainly is some similarity there. That said, I dont think we viewed it as quite the divine mission that the Russians now seem to view it as , and I think the UK public would baulk at the lost of 25000 Soldiers, many of them conscripts, in an imperialist war. 450 was rightly regarded as too much in Afghanistan. The sanctions alone would have us throwing our toys out the pram.

 

As for WW2, I put the blame for that fully in the hands of Stalin. I question whether another Soviet leader, Lenin or Trotsky, would have bent over quite so much for Hitler. Call it blind ambition and hubris at work. That said there were plenty  whom were perfectly willing to behave like Fascists, as im sure the Poles at Katyn Forest would attest. I guess its just one more example of the little guy making way for the 'big' project, for which Russians then and now have also suffered.

 

My solution for Russia? Bring back the Monarchy, enjoy being special, and stop trying to export it. Which frankly is a model we could all probably live by.

 

[seahawk]

What I find is the use of stereotypes that would simply not work any more in a Western society.

Also the history of Russian anti-Semitism seems also to have come back after the fall of the Soviet union

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Hundreds

Members of which migrated to the US and later gave the world.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_International_Jew

which very much inspired German Nazis.

But most importantly it is strange how Strelkov plays with such sterotypes, which means that this kind of thinking is shared by his followers

https://www.kyivpost.com/post/17093

 

[Stuart Galbraith]

There was allegedly some evidence that the KGB were making use of Anti semitism in the last decade of the cold war, namely pamyat, presumably as a form of distraction ( much as the Tsar once did) and as a means of discrediting nationalist opponents. Wouldn't surprise me if they still do that.

Black Wind White Snow goes into this, and Dugins links to National Bolshevism. That organisation is ostensibly not antisemitic, but of course when you indulge the mindset that you are special, inherently others become rather less so.

[seahawk]

But seriously if that thinking appeals to the pro-Russians, you have a deeply racist, imperialist and violent world view. Not exactly a party you should trust or want as a neighbour. And the talk shows seem not to be better, although I know they are controlled by the government and are only meant to shape the public opinion.

[Stuart Galbraith]

Well as far as appeal, you can see anti semitism  on the rise in the US on the far right. In the UK its the far left, which reconciles the failure of the Corbyn project with a Jewish conspiracy.  So we arent that different from the average Russian, I'm unhappy to concede that.

https://labourlist.org/2023/06/the-big-lie-jeremy-corbyn-glastonbury-screening-film-watch-conspiracy-mason/

What seems to be different is a social toleration,even state encouragement, for saying such things openly, and even an apparent belief that saying it openly is reflective of some freedom long suppressed in the west. We see this fairly clearly in the treatment of the LBGT community, even worse seemingly than the antisemitism.

Tbh, if this definition of being free requires you to be a racist or homophobic tosser, I'll stick with my personal gulag.

[seahawk]

4 minutes ago, Stuart Galbraith said:

Well as far as appeal, you can see anti semitism  on the rise in the US on the far right. In the UK its the far left, which reconciles the failure of the Corbyn project with a Jewish conspiracy.  So we arent that different from the average Russian, I'm unhappy to concede that.

https://labourlist.org/2023/06/the-big-lie-jeremy-corbyn-glastonbury-screening-film-watch-conspiracy-mason/

What seems to be different is a social toleration,even state encouragement, for saying such things openly, and even an apparent belief that saying it openly is reflective of some freedom long suppressed in the west. We see this fairly clearly in the treatment of the LBGT community, even worse seemingly than the antisemitism.

Tbh, if this definition of being free requires you to be a racist or homophobic tosser, I'll stick with my personal gulag.

The generation that fought with their blood and that knew that freedom does not mean you are free to do what you like to other humans, but that you are protected from other humans doing bad things to you, is sadly fading away.

[seahawk]

Another question is the role of Russia often described to positively in literature?

[DB]

On 6/21/2023 at 2:11 PM, seahawk said:

Another question is the role of Russia often described to positively in literature?

Only by the right Russians.

[Stuart Galbraith]

Depends what literature. I found Uncle Vanya and the Master and Margarita pretty fair representations. I struggle to think of other literature  that discusses Russia that isn't Russian.Other perhaps than Eastern European, and its hardly likely they are going to be positive.

[Roman Alymov]

On 6/19/2023 at 5:19 PM, seahawk said:

Considering some voices in the Russian social media sphere still show surprisingly positive attitudes towards Russian imperialism and also plain racism (example to follow in the text), I was wondering if that might be because there was no critical discussion about the wrongs of Russian imperialism nor about the Russian responsibility on the road to both World Wars.

Example of stunning racism.

Strelkov Igor Ivanovich #KRP
It is reported that the "peace mission" of African people ..., oh, that is, diplomats failed due to poor knowledge of geography. In the course of negotiations with Zelensky in Kiev, African canniba ... that is, politicians, without understanding, agreed to hold referendums in Kursk, Belgorod and Krasnodar under the control of UN troops, since they were told that these were "primordial Ukrainian lands."
When Vladimir Vladimirovich saw such a peace plan coordinated with Zelensky, he first ... agreed. But then I looked through the document more carefully, and saw that the last item was a "tourist trip to The Hague" for him personally. And finally changed my mind.
The Main Department of Internal Affairs of St. Petersburg also reports that during the visit of dear African guests, 3 white women and jewelry from a store visited by the delegation of the Cayman Islands disappeared without a trace, and a group of gypsy beggars from Nevsky Prospekt filed a complaint against the Prime Minister of the Desert Odicaria, stating that he intimidated them, deceived them, hypnotized them and lured out all the values earned by overwork. The prime minister, detained on the application, turned out to be a first-year student of the Moscow Institute named after P. Lumumba - L. Pubumba, who had been on academic leave for 15 years and worked as an alpha male in the Moscow Zoo all these years.
P.S. Let the representatives of the African continent not be offended by me, but respect for their "statesmen" involved in a fraudulent and treacherous operation hostile to my country, and even ugly and ridiculous in design and execution - I do not have a priori.

https://t.me/strelkovii/5533

So maybe it is time, especially in the English speaking world of historians, to focus more on Russian actions and influence and on how those helped to set the stage for both World Wars. For example: Imagine WW2 without the Molotov–Ribbentrop Pact.

I'm affraid you do not understand the core messages of Strelkov that are the baseline of everything he writes. In short, he is opposing current pro-Western political system of Russia (personalized, but not limited to, Putin&Co with all their children and relatives) and not allowing "official propaganda" of this "Appeasement of the West" or "Controlled defeat"(c)Oleg Tsaryov) party to get traction in Russian grass roots.

     What we see in this particular example? Russian official media are trying to communicate the message "We are not alone in our struggle against West, see "Global South" on our side or, at least, neutral". Is this message right or not  - let interenational affairs experts judge, i am not one. Taking into consideration hysterical reaction of Poland officials and specific take on events of some This Great Firom members, our "official media" may be right. But for Strelkov everything outside Russia do not matter -  he is focused on not allowing to pro-Western Russian Elite  to claim any success  - and, the same way as he accuse Scott Ritter and Douglas Macgregor* of being paid by Russian officials to create nice messages that are to be added to reports to top officials of Russia and show RusMoD and RusForeignAffairs work in positive light, he is rushing to use old half-forgotten rubber stamps to discredit any talks with African leaders in the eyes of Russian public. Note highlighted in bold above: Strelkov is specificslly outlining he got nothing against African leaders (and Africans in general) but the moment they are engaged in any talks with current Rus Gov    - they are becoming part of disinformation operation by pro-Western elite of Russia against Russian people, and since then anything goes. By the way every time Strelkov is mentioning Rus Foreign Minister Lavrov - he reminds readers he is part of "Armenian mafia" in Russian elite (as well as RT chief Margarita Simonyan), Volodin is "leib-gay" and so on. He is banning every penfriend who dare to say something positive about "Wagner" PMC. Even when talking about pro-Russian frontline commanders who are more or less cooperatibe with Russian officials, Strelkov always reminds reades that this one is drug addict, other ine was alchogol addict, this one was cooperating with SBU and so on. Even with few people Strelkov have relations of personal respect, he is often in complex relations  - see my old post below on origins of conflict between Strelkov and Murz (note i personally know both and no doubt they are both dedicated people who respect each other, but can't agree on some positions). And i know only ONE man, who seems to be totally supported by Strelkov (may be, because this man is never practicing public statements, but is totally focused on practical affairs, so no ground for disagreements - and they fought alongside since Transnistria events in early 1990th)

* As i have allready said here, see https://www.tanknet.org/index.php?/topic/38893-kiev-is-burning/page/2830/#comment-1664982

On reasons of conflict between Strelkov and Murz, my earlier post

 

[seahawk]

5 hours ago, Roman Alymov said:

I'm affraid you do not understand the core messages of Strelkov that are the baseline of everything he writes. In short, he is opposing current pro-Western political system of Russia (personalized, but not limited to, Putin&Co with all their children and relatives) and not allowing "official propaganda" of this "Appeasement of the West" or "Controlled defeat"(c)Oleg Tsaryov) party to get traction in Russian grass roots.

     What we see in this particular example? Russian official media are trying to communicate the message "We are not alone in our struggle against West, see "Global South" on our side or, at least, neutral". Is this message right or not  - let interenational affairs experts judge, i am not one. Taking into consideration hysterical reaction of Poland officials and specific take on events of some This Great Firom members, our "official media" may be right. But for Strelkov everything outside Russia do not matter -  he is focused on not allowing to pro-Western Russian Elite  to claim any success  - and, the same way as he accuse Scott Ritter and Douglas Macgregor* of being paid by Russian officials to create nice messages that are to be added to reports to top officials of Russia and show RusMoD and RusForeignAffairs work in positive light, he is rushing to use old half-forgotten rubber stamps to discredit any talks with African leaders in the eyes of Russian public. Note highlighted in bold above: Strelkov is specificslly outlining he got nothing against African leaders (and Africans in general) but the moment they are engaged in any talks with current Rus Gov    - they are becoming part of disinformation operation by pro-Western elite of Russia against Russian people, and since then anything goes. By the way every time Strelkov is mentioning Rus Foreign Minister Lavrov - he reminds readers he is part of "Armenian mafia" in Russian elite (as well as RT chief Margarita Simonyan), Volodin is "leib-gay" and so on. He is banning every penfriend who dare to say something positive about "Wagner" PMC. Even when talking about pro-Russian frontline commanders who are more or less cooperatibe with Russian officials, Strelkov always reminds reades that this one is drug addict, other ine was alchogol addict, this one was cooperating with SBU and so on. Even with few people Strelkov have relations of personal respect, he is often in complex relations  - see my old post below on origins of conflict between Strelkov and Murz (note i personally know both and no doubt they are both dedicated people who respect each other, but can't agree on some positions). And i know only ONE man, who seems to be totally supported by Strelkov (may be, because this man is never practicing public statements, but is totally focused on practical affairs, so no ground for disagreements - and they fought alongside since Transnistria events in early 1990th)

* As i have allready said here, see https://www.tanknet.org/index.php?/topic/38893-kiev-is-burning/page/2830/#comment-1664982

On reasons of conflict between Strelkov and Murz, my earlier post

 

Oh I get the message, it is racism and imperialism. See, you can make all the point you listed without using racists stereotypes. But nice to know that you do not even seem to notice. 

[Roman Alymov]

12 minutes ago, seahawk said:

Oh I get the message, it is racism and imperialism. See, you can make all the point you listed without using racists stereotypes. But nice to know that you do not even seem to notice. 

As for me, i have explained above why Strelkov is usung old racist (or xenophobic) rubberstamps to discredit Russian political elite efforts to gain sort of diplomatic support from abroad. "You can make all the point you listed without using racists stereotypes" - Well, to some extent it is possible (but difficult since, as i have pointed above, in this particular case "official propaganda" is most likely right, while Strelkov is wrong, and attempts to support his position with reasoning will, most likely, fail - while addressing deeply rooted racist stereotypes will most likely work on emotional level). There are no current facts Strelkov could use to support his position regarding this African delegation visit, so in addition to above mentioned racist statements, in another message he also familiarize readers with his interpretation of previous generations of Russian/Soviet political elite were outsmarted by local African rulers and lost massive investments USSR was trying to do in Africa to promote Socialism case (now this practice is strongly criticized in Russia and is believed to be one of the reasons of USSR backrupthy, while really it hardly was).  Note by the way that when criticizing Russian officials and Putin himself, Strelkov is far more critical and humiliating (and far more factual, by the way - so he do not need to go for rubber stamps, as there is enough of real issues to be pointed out). Still, even in this criticizm he is sometimes wrong (for example, he insisted that population of Russia is really about 100 mln, and figure of 147 mln is made up by officials to please their higher ups).
   I wonder where you find imperialism here.  I would rather call it "isolationism", as Strelkov is opposing to any activity of Russia outside of its historic borders.

[seahawk]

It is hard to critcize the Russian politicasl elite without using racist terms for African diplomats. Interesting.

[Stuart Galbraith]

Is that not saying 'This is a racist society, so if Strelkov doesnt talk like a racist, he is going to be ignored?'

Not, let others not say, that I live in a country that isnt racist. I know it is. But at least we have progressed to a point where politicians (or even military harpies like Strelkov is) dont fixate on having to say the N word to be heard.

[seahawk]

Strelkov did handily beat the N-Word imho.

The prime minister, detained on the application, turned out to be a first-year student of the Moscow Institute named after P. Lumumba - L. Pubumba, who had been on academic leave for 15 years and worked as an alpha male in the Moscow Zoo all these years.

[Roman Alymov]

1 hour ago, Stuart Galbraith said:

Is that not saying 'This is a racist society, so if Strelkov doesnt talk like a racist, he is going to be ignored?'

Not, let others not say, that I live in a country that isnt racist. I know it is. But at least we have progressed to a point where politicians (or even military harpies like Strelkov is) dont fixate on having to say the N word to be heard.

Unfortunatelly, Strelkov is not a politician - he is Russian Civil war historian who, right after graduating from univercity, went to post-Soviet civil war as volunteer and since then was at that war in all possible forms (from conscript soldier to FSB Colonel). He is known to be extremely frank (even when it harms his personal image and prospects), and nobody was able to find any proof of actions that could harm his image of volunteer commander dedicated to his cause. If somebody is unhappy with him  - well, it is up to him. For example, here us what is Strelkov (who is known to be strongly religeous man) have to say about Russian Orthodox church leadership:

"Gundyaev (Patriarch - RA) is faithful to ecumenism just as Putin is faithful to cooperation with his numerous partners..." ( https://t.me/strelkovii/4887 )

"It seems that Gundyaev decided to "clean up" the Patriarchate from the last honest priests - the rector of the Church in the name of St.Clement of the Pope, Archpriest Fr. Leonid Kalinin.

I know Father Leonid personally (not close, but still, since I have repeatedly attended festive services and Liturgy in this church, even last Easter I was honored to carry the icon of the Mother of God during one of the Processions). I have never noticed any violations on the part of Fr. Leonid and the church clergy regarding the order of service and even those (outrageous and ugly) requirements that the patriarchate carried out during the so-called "covid hysteria" (the liar was disinfected with alcohol, all parishioners were forced to put on muzzles, the church was closed for Easter, etc., because of which I simply did not go into this temple for a while). However, Father Leonid did not hide in front of the parishioners that he was not "delighted" about this. But few of the priests "experienced" him, if I understand correctly... The Patriarch was always remembered in all the proper cases.

Father Leonid enjoys well-deserved respect and authority in the parish, preaches beautifully, services are conducted in an exemplary manner, order and splendor are always in the church.

Hardly fr.Leonid needs my "protection". Rather, on the contrary. But I can't "pass by".
On the face - an extra confirmation: the "system" drowns everyone who somehow breaks out of the generally vile standard of total hypocrisy and deceitful sycophancy through and through. What is in the state, what is in the Church. At the same time, the "system" is no longer able to understand that it "drowns" just those on whose authority the population (in this case, Orthodox Christians) she's still holding on." ( https://t.me/strelkovii/5104 )

And so on. 

[DB]

5 hours ago, Stuart Galbraith said:

Is that not saying 'This is a racist society, so if Strelkov doesnt talk like a racist, he is going to be ignored?'

Not, let others not say, that I live in a country that isnt racist. I know it is. But at least we have progressed to a point where politicians (or even military harpies like Strelkov is) dont fixate on having to say the N word to be heard.

This country isn't racist (the UK, I mean) - if it were, then there would be explicitly defined laws that allow and perhaps even enforce racist practices. There are none. there isn't even a significant minority opinion that you could string together that would be in favour of any such laws, so you can't even claim that.

This is not the Draka Domination. 🙄