Angrybk Posted May 8, 2023 Share Posted May 8, 2023 About halfway through The Panzer Killers and don't love the book due to its over-flowery prose (standard "most men would have run from danger, not General Rose!!" stuff) and focus on combat wins/losses but it does seem like Rose knew his sh*t, although the book doesn't really tell you much detail about why he was good. I guess naming a tank "M1 Rose" would have been challenging. I know Rich's research touches on some 3rd Armored stuff so would be interested to hear what he has to say about him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichTO90 Posted May 8, 2023 Share Posted May 8, 2023 3 hours ago, Angrybk said: About halfway through The Panzer Killers and don't love the book due to its over-flowery prose (standard "most men would have run from danger, not General Rose!!" stuff) and focus on combat wins/losses but it does seem like Rose knew his sh*t, although the book doesn't really tell you much detail about why he was good. I guess naming a tank "M1 Rose" would have been challenging. I know Rich's research touches on some 3rd Armored stuff so would be interested to hear what he has to say about him. From everything I've found he was highly competent and well thought of by his peers. Given that he was Jewish - although he did not advertise it - and achieved high rank in the waspish U.S. Army he certainly knew how to gain advancement. He was not a West Pointer, entering the Army in World War I via the Colorado National Guard but received a Regular commission in the Infantry postwar - fairly unusual in the shrinking Army so possibly indicative of competence and regard by his peers as well. Fairly uniquely he transferred to the Cavalry 1 August 1930 and then went through all the important Army schools - CGSS, Army Industrial College, and GSC by January 1942 when he was promoted to colonel (AUS). From July 1940 to July 1941 he commanded the 3d Battalion, 13th Armored (formerly the 13th Cavalry), then was XO of the 1st Armored Brigade, before he was transferred to the 2d Armored Division as CoS when he was promoted to colonel. He was promoted to brigadier general 2 June 1943 and was assigned to command CCA, 2d Armored Division, which he led in Sicily and in the opening stages of the Normandy Campaign. On 7 August 1944, he assumed command of the 3d Armored Division vice Leroy Watson and led it with distinction until his death. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sardaukar Posted May 8, 2023 Share Posted May 8, 2023 Wasn't he involved in that debacle about saving Patton's relative by marriage or something? That led to his death? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichTO90 Posted May 8, 2023 Share Posted May 8, 2023 (edited) 13 minutes ago, Sardaukar said: Wasn't he involved in that debacle about saving Patton's relative by marriage or something? That led to his death? No. The Hammelburg Raid was conducted by Task Force Baum of the 4th Armored Division, Third U.S. Army. The 3d Armored Division was First U.S. Army. Edited May 8, 2023 by RichTO90 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichTO90 Posted May 8, 2023 Share Posted May 8, 2023 BTW, I do have biographical information on quite a few of those involved with the Armored Force in American Thunder but space limitations kept me from doing much about the divisional commanders except in passing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sardaukar Posted May 8, 2023 Share Posted May 8, 2023 5 minutes ago, RichTO90 said: No. The Hammelburg Raid was conducted by Task Force Baum of the 4th Armored Division, Third U.S. Army. The 3d Armored Division was First U.S. Army. Thanks, I somehow mixed that up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
17thfabn Posted May 9, 2023 Share Posted May 9, 2023 1 hour ago, Sardaukar said: Thanks, I somehow mixed that up. Your not the only one. I saw a documentary about the U.S 3rd Armored Division. The men complained that their families would see news stories about the 3rd Army and think it was about them. They would say no Mom, I'm in the the Third Armored Division, not the Third Army. Imagine the confusion with the "1st Division". The U.S. had the 1st Infantry Division, 1st Cavalry Division and 1st Armored Division. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichTO90 Posted May 9, 2023 Share Posted May 9, 2023 My Dad had possibly the hardest time of that. His battalion was TUSA troops during World War II. Then in 1955 he was assigned as a Battery Commander with the 72d AAA Battalion attached to the reactivated 3d Armored Division. Endless confusion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FALightFighter Posted May 9, 2023 Share Posted May 9, 2023 (edited) Totally off topic, but.... At one point, the 3/2 BCT (3rd Brigade Combat Team, 2nd Infantry Division) (typically spoken as "Three Two" in the US Army) had the 1-23 IN (1st Battalion, 23rd Infantry) (typically pronounced "One Two Three") and the 2-3 IN (2nd Battalion, 3rd Infantry) (typically pronounced as "Two Three"). The only thing that would have made it better would have been if they'd brigaded these two battalions with 3-21 IN (3rd Battalion, 21st Infantry) (typically pronounced as "Three Two One"), which was assigned to the other brigade on post from 2002-2006. Edited May 10, 2023 by FALightFighter fixed two typos Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichTO90 Posted May 10, 2023 Share Posted May 10, 2023 😁 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andreas Posted May 17, 2023 Share Posted May 17, 2023 On 5/9/2023 at 2:15 AM, 17thfabn said: Imagine the confusion with the "1st Division". The U.S. had the 1st Infantry Division, 1st Cavalry Division and 1st Armored Division. Fully equipped with M3s too! M3 light tanks, M3 medium tanks, both with M3 guns and infantry in M3 halftracks, accompanied by M3 Scout Cars and protected against tanks by M3 GMcs and towed M3 anti-tank guns. All the best Andreas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogDodger Posted May 20, 2023 Share Posted May 20, 2023 On 5/17/2023 at 5:35 AM, Andreas said: Fully equipped with M3s too! M3 light tanks, M3 medium tanks, both with M3 guns and infantry in M3 halftracks, accompanied by M3 Scout Cars and protected against tanks by M3 GMcs and towed M3 anti-tank guns. All the best Andreas The light tanks would have 37 mm guns M5 or M6, to be fair. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Murph Posted May 23, 2023 Share Posted May 23, 2023 On 5/8/2023 at 7:57 AM, Angrybk said: About halfway through The Panzer Killers and don't love the book due to its over-flowery prose (standard "most men would have run from danger, not General Rose!!" stuff) and focus on combat wins/losses but it does seem like Rose knew his sh*t, although the book doesn't really tell you much detail about why he was good. I guess naming a tank "M1 Rose" would have been challenging. I know Rich's research touches on some 3rd Armored stuff so would be interested to hear what he has to say about him. According to Atkinson, and others, Rose was one of the finest Armor commanders produced by the US Army in WWII. I am still proud of my time in 2/36th Infantry in the 3rd Armored Division in the early to mid 1980's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichTO90 Posted May 24, 2023 Share Posted May 24, 2023 7 hours ago, Murph said: According to Atkinson, and others, Rose was one of the finest Armor commanders produced by the US Army in WWII. I am still proud of my time in 2/36th Infantry in the 3rd Armored Division in the early to mid 1980's. My Dad was also 3d Armored postwar, but when it was reactivated in 1955, until 1959 when we returned from Germany for a Pentagon tour. My older sister used to get in trouble regularly because she kept on trying to sneak out of our Hanau quarters so she could track down some SSG named Presley. 😁 Rose was outstanding as a CC and division commander, ranking up there with Ernie Harmon and P. Wood. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sardaukar Posted May 24, 2023 Share Posted May 24, 2023 I think his Corps commander was for a while "Lightning Joe" Collins of VII Corps (?), so Rose probably got along with his Corps CO pretty well, considering Collins was thought to be one of the best in his job in ETO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FALightFighter Posted May 24, 2023 Share Posted May 24, 2023 31 minutes ago, Sardaukar said: I think his Corps commander was for a while "Lightning Joe" Collins of VII Corps (?), so Rose probably got along with his Corps CO pretty well, considering Collins was thought to be one of the best in his job in ETO. https://history.army.mil/documents/eto-ob/3AD-ETO.htm Rose commanded 3rd AD from 7 AUG 44 - 20 MAR 45 (this may be a type, wiki says 30 MAR). 3rd AD was attached to VII Corps from 15 JUL 44 - 18 DEC 44, and then again from 23 DEC 44 - 30 APR 45, so Rose was under Collins for all but 5 days of his division command. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichTO90 Posted May 24, 2023 Share Posted May 24, 2023 Rose was killed in the early evening of 30 March 1945 when the center of the TF Welborn column was hit by a German counterattack, which took advantage of the relative lack of nearby American tanks (they struck mostly Company F, 36th AIR and elements of the 1st Battalion, 33d AR) knocking out 11 halftracks, 3 medium tanks, 1 light tank, and 2 21/2-ton trucks, and separating General Rose's party from the main body in the confusion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Angrybk Posted May 25, 2023 Author Share Posted May 25, 2023 Had pretty high hopes for The Panzer Killers but honestly is pretty dry so far -- "then they advanced and destroyed three MKIVs while losing two Shermans and four wounded" etc... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichTO90 Posted May 25, 2023 Share Posted May 25, 2023 3 hours ago, Angrybk said: Had pretty high hopes for The Panzer Killers but honestly is pretty dry so far -- "then they advanced and destroyed three MKIVs while losing two Shermans and four wounded" etc... Too bad. I hope he at least used the 3d Armd Div unit reports - they are extensive, detailed, and pretty complete. They are my primary source for my account of the "duel" at the Cologne Cathedral in American Thunder. While Makos's account in Spearhead is pretty good he appears to have gotten some of the movements and timings off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Murph Posted May 30, 2023 Share Posted May 30, 2023 Well there is always Belton Cooper..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichTO90 Posted May 30, 2023 Share Posted May 30, 2023 6 hours ago, Murph said: Well there is always Belton Cooper..... Get thee hence thing of Evul! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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