AMX-13 HE shells

[Arminius]

The Kürassier ( "Cuirassier" ), which has the French 105 mm Turret, still has two drums in the back of the turret, which are rotated manually.

The Kürassier has the Steyr APC chassis as basis, but is much improved: easy steering like a bycicle and stronger Diesel engine.

The Obus G HEAT round was used then, as by that time only the Russians had APFSDS Dart ammo. The 105 mm Obus G grenade was the same for the 105 mm AMX 13 gun and the AMX 30´s gun IIRC,  AMX 30´s cartridge shell was larger, though.

Kürassier was improved to use APFSDS from Mid 80´s on.

Hermann

[Stuart Galbraith]

Thanks for that Arminius.

[bojan]

13 hours ago, On the way said:

...The French keep claiming the AMX-13's 75mm is not a copy of the Panther 75mm kwk 42 gun. I think it is...

Whole gun construction is quite different from Panther's. from the placement of recoil mechanism to the everything else. It is just a silly myth, like "arm eating Soviet autoloaders", "Israelis putting Centurion turrets on M48 hulls", "IT-130"  and other Cold War fudd lore.

Edited May 17, 2023 by bojan

[usernamedeleted]

The KWK42 and SA50 guns were similar, but not the same. The ammunition, for example, was not directly interchangeable. The cases and chambers had differing profiles, so one would not fit the other's ammo.

Below is the Panther's round, above is the AMX-13's.

 

Edited May 18, 2023 by usernamedeleted

[On the way]

1 hour ago, bojan said:

Whole gun construction is quite different from Panther's. from the placement of recoil mechanism to the everything else. It is just a silly myth, like "arm eating Soviet autoloaders", "Israelis putting Centurion turrets on M48 hulls", "IT-130"  and other Cold War fudd lore.

From wiki:

By the end of 1944, the chief engineer Lafargue considered a more powerful alternative to the 75 mm SA 44 developed for the upcoming ARL-44 transitional tank destroyer. The new 75 mm gun should have ballistic performance similar to the German 7.5 cm KwK 42 ; which means firing a round weighing a little more than 6 kg at a muzzle velocity close to 1000 m/s. A longer gun barrel (L/70), an increased chamber volume with a higher chamber pressure were thus required to achieve such performance. The new gun was made from existing components (breech block, gun tube, ...) developed clandestinely during the German occupation.^[1] Although not retained for the ARL-44, the gun was later selected for the AMX-13 prototype and was subsequently standardised as 75 mm SA 50.

 

 

 

[bojan]

1. AMX-13 gun was not L/70, it was L/55/59/61, depending how it is measured (w/o chamber and muzzle break / w/o muzzle break / full barrel with chamber and muzzle break). In fact, that makes it much closer to 17 pounder than kwk42.

2. "should have ballistic performance" - That does not make it a copy. Soviet 85mm D-48 gun and British 20 pounder had similar ballistics to the German 88/71 and they were not a copy.

3 "developed clandestinely during the German occupation" - Hence kwk42 could hardly have an influence, as I really doubt that Germans shared date with French.

 

 

 

Edited May 18, 2023 by bojan

[Stuart Galbraith]

Some nice film here.

[On the way]

On 11/13/2023 at 11:54 AM, Stuart Galbraith said:

Some nice film here.

That AMX-13 with the double muzzle brake, that's unusual. Couldn't make it out. Might have been a 90mm version?

[Stuart Galbraith]

No Idea, I know next to nothing about the AMX 13, other than I find it aesthetically pleasing. Ive just read the Haynes book on the AMX30, and im ruefully realising the French really did know something about getting the best out of smaller bore guns, whether they were 90mm or 105mm.

[Walter_Sobchak]

2 hours ago, On the way said:

That AMX-13 with the double muzzle brake, that's unusual. Couldn't make it out. Might have been a 90mm version?

I believe this is the 105mm armed AMX-13 Mle 58.  I base this on the information provided by the book "Images of War: AMX-13 Light Tank -  The Complete History" by Robinson, Lau, and Gibeau.  As far as I know, it is the most comprehensive volume on the AMX-13 available in English.  

[Arminius]

From the thickness of the barrel I am quite sure it´s the 105 mm Version. And the Obus G on Video.

IIRC the double baffle muzzle brake hat to be changed later to allow for APFSDS Dart Ammo.

Hermann

[EchoFiveMike]

How did Obus G compare in performance with M456?  S/F...Ken M

[Arminius]

On 11/29/2023 at 1:33 AM, EchoFiveMike said:

How did Obus G compare in performance with M456?  S/F...Ken M

IIRC we were told, that the 105 mm HEAT round would pierce 360 mm Steel.

The "Trick" of the Obus G was, that it was fired through a rifled gun, and had much better Ballistics than a "blunt" and "Finned" HEAT round. The Obus G looked like a Spitzer HE BT round.

Hermann