Because France

[urbanoid]

2 minutes ago, Roman Alymov said:

Here is  the fundamental problem: significant part of West population is no more "functional people" and combined with the fact that most of old West prosperity was based on industrial and infrastructure legacy of colonial empires time (that is now increasingly leveled by development of non-Western countries) - it is increasingly unlikely that West, if economically isolated for some reason, will create some sort of "new economy". More likely, "functional people" will pack up and leave to places where their function will be used in more productive way.  

    See Polish shipbuilders becoming London plumbers. see shipbuilders from old Soviet shipyards left in Ukraine migrating to Russian shipyards (despite of unfriendly climate conditions), see coal mining regions of UK, and so on. 

Even huge economical and human potential of USA is no more immune to this problems

Most of the Western prosperity was based on technological advancements and the industrial revolution. Some of those countries had colonial empires because they had basic infrastructure necessary to acquire them in the first place and later built even more on top of that. The US was basically self-sufficient and could be again, it just... requires a lot of work. Germany too was an industrial powerhouse and their colonial possessions were rather meager. 

Between Europe and North America (+Australia, Japan etc) there are enough resources to maintain a functional civilisation. It's also unlikely for the West to be isolated, because... nobody is in a position to isolate it. Industries you've lost you can restore/reinvigorate, it's difficult but possible, as long as the know-how remains - isn't Russia actually trying to do just that in some cases?

[urbanoid]

9 minutes ago, Roman Alymov said:

Well, you make rumours of Polish borderguards killing migrants and throwing them into mass graves in forests sound plausable. 

They weren't, but I welcome such unconfirmed rumors - the information travels fast and the next waves are less likely to try after hearing that. 

In the first place it was your country together with your puppet Potato Tsar that manufactured this crisis on our border.

Edited July 5, 2023 by urbanoid

[Stuart Galbraith]

2 minutes ago, Murph said:

Yeah, tow them back to their countries and end of problem.

In fact, there are allegations thats precisely how it happened. They brought her bow around with a rope, all the women and children beneath decks rolled to one side, and she rolled over on her beam ends.

Of course, the Greek Coast Guard deny it. Surprisingly they dont seem to have filmed it which would of course, complete exonerate them...

12 minutes ago, urbanoid said:

Brutally enough to scare the next waves. If the borders are being stormed, treat it as a military invasion and respond with military means. Bullets and artillery shells are cheap, if the flows are as big as you think they will be, you don't even need those shells to be guided. Do it a few times and the waves will stop, they'll decide that poverty and possible death in their shitholes is a better alternative than basically certain death on the Garden's border or, if they manage to cross it, inside the Garden itself, where they'll be hunted down. 

Well, there are already voices from Africa that what PRC does is basically neo-colonisation, sometimes worse than original. While I admit that the PRC-owned Africa would be a problem for the West simply due to certain resources there, at the same time such a prospect amuses me to no end. If they end up being China's bitches to 'show the white devils', it would be perfectly ironic.

I pointed out that this was happening some 10 years ago, and had a strip torn off me by someone on Tanknet, someone I strongly suspect was from the PRC. Well, time is proving it so. Its becoming boringly predictable that I bang on about something, I get a strip torn off me, and 10 years later it happens.

As for the rest... lets just say its not a world I want to be living in, and no disrespect to you intended.

[urbanoid]

6 minutes ago, Stuart Galbraith said:

I pointed out that this was happening some 10 years ago, and had a strip torn off me by someone on Tanknet, someone I strongly suspect was from the PRC. Well, time is proving it so. Its becoming boringly predictable that I bang on about something, I get a strip torn off me, and 10 years later it happens.

As for the rest... lets just say its not a world I want to be living in, and no disrespect to you intended.

Well, some say that the Chinese loans don't come with the strings attached, unlike the Western ones, and it's partially true. China doesn't give a shit whether you are a democracy or you respect basic human rights when dealing with your citizens and that part checks out - no strings at all. Economic strings OTOH? Oh boy. We've seen Chinese appetite for owning critical state infrastructure abroad and not just in Africa. Maybe there will be (or already is?) some Chinese Wagner (of course as a strictly private company with no ties to the state whatsoever) to protect that infrastucture in case the pesky locals had other ideas about ownership? 

As for the rest... let's just say it's not the world I want to be living in either, but sometimes a man's gotta do what the man's gotta do and I see it as a better (or 'less bad') alternative compared to some other scenarios.

[Stuart Galbraith]

 

[Ssnake]

Ah, the Fashion Police has arrived on the scene.

[CarnelianClout]

@Stuart Galbraith

I don't see anything extreme about putting your own people first and focusing on the development of one's own country instead of outsourcing your country to Foreign powers. As for the immigrants, just deport them back to their country of origin. I wouldn't advocate shooting or gunning them down at sea. 

[BansheeOne]

Given that the demographic development leading to the current problems in French banlieus began in the 1970s, the causes themselves firmly rooted in French colonialism/imperialism, all the talk of immigration control is impressively besides the point. If there's a lesson relevant to this particular issue, it's "don't build empires if you don't want the people in them".

[urbanoid]

20 minutes ago, BansheeOne said:

Given that the demographic development leading to the current problems in French banlieus began in the 1970s, the causes themselves firmly rooted in French colonialism/imperialism, all the talk of immigration control is impressively besides the point. If there's a lesson relevant to this particular issue, it's "don't build empires if you don't want the people in them".

There would be exactly zero problem with building an empire, losing it and then NOT letting the former colonial subjects in.

Also what kind of an empire Sweden had? 

It's not about what the country did or didn't do in the past, it's about immigration policy.

Edited July 5, 2023 by urbanoid

[sunday]

14 minutes ago, urbanoid said:

Also what kind of an empire Sweden had? 

Finns, Baltics, Slavs, even some Germans. Some more savage than others.

However, better ask about the German Empire and how the former subjects of the various Kaisers were not among the perps of those New Year Eve incidents in some train station.

Edited July 5, 2023 by sunday

[R011]

18 hours ago, CarnelianClout said:

The French Military are not right-wing political extremists. You did not read what I was saying. 

But LePen is or at least friends of them, and you want her in charge.

[R011]

3 hours ago, urbanoid said:

The US was basically self-sufficient

 

Well, in some ways, yeah.  The US was still a major importer and exporter during the 18th and 19th centuries and was built with a lot of European capital.  Even later, a big reason why the Great Depression was so devastating to the US was that they initiated a major trade war that tanked exports.

[CarnelianClout]

4 minutes ago, R011 said:

But LePen is or at least friends of them, and you want her in charge.

Yes. She, or a similar figure - is the best option currently. 

[BansheeOne]

23 minutes ago, urbanoid said:

There would be exactly zero problem with building an empire, losing it and then NOT letting the former colonial subjects in.

Also what kind of an empire Sweden had?

Are we talking about nationwide riots by youth from precarious suburbs in Sweden?

Here is the problem. It's the 1950s, and the economies of industrialized European countries are rebounding from WW II in a big way, but desperately lack workers due to the casualities and birth gap of the war. Easily solved for the likes of France and the UK: they have still-existing or recent ex-colonies full of cheap workers who already have citizenship or at least speak the language. So the UK imports lots of South Asians and East Indians in particular (see Windrush generation). France doesn't even technically need to go outside its borders, since Algeria is actually a metropolitan French department for now. Germany doesn't have any colonies, so it recruits people from structurally weak southern Europe, everything from Portugal to Turkey. Folks stream to the well-paying jobs. The economy booms. Everyone's happy.

Come the 70s, oil crisis, economic downturn, rising unemployment. In France, low-wage workers have moved from dilapidated inner-city housing into the government-built "new city" high-rises in the suburbs which held the promise of affordable modern anemities in the 50s. The immigrants have remained on the lowest rungs of the workforce and are first to get laid off. Native French move out of the neighborhoods if they can. The usual spiral of poor education, bad economics, discrimination, white flight, structural neglect, rising crime etc. begins. The concentration of immigrant communities attracts newcomers sharing the same nationalities and cultures. Besides those, a trans-ethnic "us poor rejects" banlieue identity develops against society outside, authorities etc. Fast-forward to the 21st century, and hey, riots! Quelle surprise.

[urbanoid]

6 minutes ago, BansheeOne said:

Are we talking about nationwide riots by youth from precarious suburbs in Sweden?

Here is the problem. It's the 1950s, and the economies of industrialized European countries are rebounding from WW II in a big way, but desperately lack workers due to the casualities and birth gap of the war. Easily solved for the likes of France and the UK: they have still-existing or recent ex-colonies full of cheap workers who already have citizenship or at least speak the language. So the UK imports lots of South Asians and East Indians in particular (see Windrush generation). France doesn't even technically need to go outside its borders, since Algeria is actually a metropolitan French department for now. Germany doesn't have any colonies, so it recruits people from structurally weak southern Europe, everything from Portugal to Turkey. Folks stream to the well-paying jobs. The economy booms. Everyone's happy.

Come the 70s, oil crisis, economic downturn, rising unemployment. In France, low-wage workers have moved from dilapidated inner-city housing into the government-built "new city" high-rises in the suburbs which held the promise of affordable modern anemities in the 50s. The immigrants have remained on the lowest rungs of the workforce and are first to get laid off. Native French move out of the neighborhoods if they can. The usual spiral of poor education, bad economics, discrimination, white flight, structural neglect, rising crime etc. begins. The concentration of immigrant communities attracts newcomers sharing the same nationalities and cultures. Besides those, a trans-ethnic "us poor rejects" banlieue identity develops against society outside, authorities etc. Fast-forward to the 21st century, and hey, riots! Quelle surprise.

Ah, there you have it - it had nothing to do with having colonies or not, but everything to do with wanting cheap labor, wherever it could be found - incidentally some of those places were former colonies. Countries like Japan or South Korea, operating within the same economic system somehow managed to have their success stories without unnecessary... well, baggage. Even the baggage could be largely shed if it was dumped back to their countries of origin - but that would be racist and inhumane, eh? 

[BansheeOne]

Well, the point is that the colonies (or in the French case overseas parts of the motherland) were used as a ready pool to actively invite labor in, willingly creating immigrant (quasi-)citizen communities which through both neglect and serving as anchor points for later immigrants created the problems debated here. It's not like there was a debate about denying entry to foreign masses looking for asylum and welfare benefits, which is a more recent and separate issue. As seen in contemporary Germany, where even the current government is looking for ways to further restrict the latter while still sucking in workers from Southern and, now, Eastern Europe for its economic needs.

[Stuart Galbraith]

2 hours ago, BansheeOne said:

Given that the demographic development leading to the current problems in French banlieus began in the 1970s, the causes themselves firmly rooted in French colonialism/imperialism, all the talk of immigration control is impressively besides the point. If there's a lesson relevant to this particular issue, it's "don't build empires if you don't want the people in them".

Yeah, that's a pretty fair take I think.

[urbanoid]

5 minutes ago, BansheeOne said:

Well, the point is that the colonies (or in the French case overseas parts of the motherland) were used as a ready pool to actively invite labor in, willingly creating immigrant (quasi-)citizen communities which through both neglect and serving as anchor points for later immigrants created the problems debated here. It's not like there was a debate about denying entry to foreign masses looking for asylum and welfare benefits, which is a more recent and separate issue. As seen in contemporary Germany, where even the current government is looking for ways to further restrict the latter while still sucking in workers from Southern and, now, Eastern Europe for its economic needs.

I don't pretend to know the intricacies of internal politics of Western countries and whether immigration was a subject of a debate in every single one of them. Definitely there was some in the UK, a certain gentleman even made his 'Rivers of Blood' speech:

Quote

 

Here is a decent, ordinary fellow Englishman, who in broad daylight in my own town says to me, his Member of Parliament, that the country will not be worth living in for his children. I simply do not have the right to shrug my shoulders and think about something else. What he is saying, thousands and hundreds of thousands are saying and thinking – not throughout Great Britain, perhaps, but in the areas that are already undergoing the total transformation to which there is no parallel in a thousand years of English history. We must be mad, literally mad, as a nation to be permitting the annual inflow of some 50,000 dependents, who are for the most part the material of the future growth of the immigrant descended population. It is like watching a nation busily engaged in heaping up its own funeral pyre. So insane are we that we actually permit unmarried persons to immigrate for the purpose of founding a family with spouses and fiancées whom they have never seen.

That's only a small part of it, the whole speech is too long to post here. Things would have been different if he was listened to instead of being condemned.

7 minutes ago, Stuart Galbraith said:

Yeah, that's a pretty fair take I think.

Not really, because countries that didn't have colonies have the same problems. Those thirdworlders in Sweden aren't former colonial subjects of the Swedish crown. French riots spilled over to Switzerland, surely not because of Swiss dark colonial past? It was mostly about cheap labor. Those people don't cause problems because of the colonialism, but because they hate and despise us. 

 

[Stuart Galbraith]

OK, so Sweden is paying the price for reliable cars, ABBA and IKEA furniture  then. Why did they have to make the country so Goddam appealing!

[X-Files]

On 7/4/2023 at 3:19 AM, sunday said:

Oh, so you are able to read posts by other people. Nice to know.

i am, I just usually gloss over yours.  Now you know.

 

On 7/4/2023 at 8:39 PM, EchoFiveMike said:

There is a place for them already.  It's not our business to tell them how to do their thing.  

ALL of these current problems come from diversity.  Good fences make good neighbors.  The endless quest by rich miserly fucks to avoid paying fair price for labor is a core part of the world's endless problems.  S/F....Ken M   

Just remember how the Mob Cap Mob dealt with them 220 or so years ago.

Paris fashion week: Celebrities and designers under fire for attending amid France riots | The Independent

 

 

 

BONUS

Local Media Reports Vigilante Group Zip-Tying France Rioters (breitbart.com)

Edited July 6, 2023 by X-Files

[sunday]

11 minutes ago, X-Files said:

i am, I just usually gloss over yours.  Now you know.

I could wonder why, on top of not glossing over that one, you felt compelled to answer.

But I wonder about a lot of things.

[X-Files]

2 minutes ago, sunday said:

I could wonder why, on top of not glossing over that one, you felt compelled to answer.

But I wonder about a lot of things.

Ditto.

 

And yet here we are.

[sunday]

2 minutes ago, X-Files said:

Ditto.

 

And yet here we are.

More glossing, less gloating.

[sunday]

Could be related to the subject of the thread:

[X-Files]

3 minutes ago, sunday said:

More glossing, less gloating.

 

That OCD of yours must really be kicking in.

 

Meanwhile, back at the topic 

Riots in France Expose Decades of Failure in Tinderbox Suburbs - Bloomberg