Because, in Israel someone said "Japan"

[futon]

4 hours ago, rmgill said:

If the left in the US was subjected to daily or weekly rocket attacks, they'd make FDR's Japanese Internment seem like a holiday resort. 

Doesn't justify the oil embargo.

[R011]

3 hours ago, futon said:

Doesn't justify the oil embargo.

No.  That Japan was involved in an illegal war of aggression in China, had occupied French Indochina, and had allied with Nazi Germany was justification enough.

[futon]

4 hours ago, R011 said:

No.  That Japan was involved in an illegal war of aggression in China, had occupied French Indochina, and had allied with Nazi Germany was justification enough.

War in China was partly fault on Chinese side. Justification would be the case had Japan suddenly assualted China. Ojective of occupation of french IndoChina was extension the war in China because the objective was to cut off aid. At the time of the start of the war in China, Nazi Germany relations were with China, not Japan. US sided with the Stalin communists SU over Japan the whole way through. 

Japan wasn't justified either. But neither was the oil embargo. Japan-Nazi Germany relations were by no means permanent. Diplomacy could have seen its end just like the end between Nazi Germany's and the Nationalists Chinese, who by the way essentially begged Germany to not change sides to Japan.

[BansheeOne]

American partisan politics, responsibility for the Pacific War, this thread is on a good path towards TankNet standard. 😁

9 hours ago, Mighty_Zuk said:

Netanyahu is not right wing, and his opposition are not left wing. You do know that political left/right in the US is unrelated to the Israeli classification, right?

Oh yeah, you're new to the Free Fire Zone. After some time here you will learn that all events in the world are related to US domestic politics, all partisan debate in Western countries is a mirror of polarization in American society, and any problem in other democracies would go away if they did it like in the US - as long as you never allow the Democrats to be in government again. Even if the locals think it's not actually a problem. 😄

I can't wait for Ryan to argue that the latest law of the Israeli coalition enabling warrantless searches of homes for guns is a good and necessary step to take the country back from the Left. 😉

[rmgill]

2 hours ago, BansheeOne said:

Oh yeah, you're new to the Free Fire Zone. After some time here you will learn that all events in the world are related to US domestic politics, all partisan debate in Western countries is a mirror of polarization in American society,

Well, when you say left and right people think it's orthogonal to their own left and right. Instead of something more akin to quarks or critters with radial symmetry. Left and right on a star fish doesn't exactly work. 

2 hours ago, BansheeOne said:

I can't wait for Ryan to argue that the latest law of the Israeli coalition enabling warrantless searches of homes for guns is a good and necessary step to take the country back from the Left. 😉

No need. The Israel thread has jumped the shark into justification for Japanese invasion of the Greater East Asian Co-Prosperity sphere. I'm just gonna sit back and watch as we try to square how Nanking is like Gaza Strip and Hell Ships to Israeli prisons. 

[futon]

Sometimes no difference can be seen by so-called American right wing and Pro-Beijing posters. Both will play rhetorical games and lack scholastic honesty for their party, principles be damned. Just back at pointing fingers when opposittion to them cheat, never to themselves.

[rmgill]

44 minutes ago, futon said:

Sometimes no difference can be seen by so-called American right wing and Pro-Beijing posters. Both will play rhetorical games and lack scholastic honesty for their party, principles be damned. Just back at pointing fingers when opposittion to them cheat, never to themselves.

Yes. You never see the right wing in the US complaining about what the GOP is doing, or what various figures on the right are doing. We're just one big unified happy family. 

Witness how DKTanker and I are in lock step on folks like Trump. 
 

[rmgill]

13 hours ago, futon said:

Doesn't justify the oil embargo.

Hamas is in a state of war with Israel. It sure does justify an oil embargo. They're lucky they're not getting a response in kind and the sort of total war they WANT to wage on Israel that they cannot. 

For a comparison, think of the Japanese Experience. Imagine Japan never surrendering and a containment policy. How would Japan look for 50 years if the Emperor never issues a Gyokuon-hōsō on August 15, '45.  That'd be good for Japan right? 

Hamas continues to fight, so does Fatah because it's in their specific tribal interest to do so. the only reason they still exist is that their opponents and the world aren't willing to end them like every other conflict of this sort of existential form did. 

[futon]

1 hour ago, rmgill said:

Yes. You never see the right wing in the US complaining about what the GOP is doing, or what various figures on the right are doing. We're just one big unified happy family. 

Witness how DKTanker and I are in lock step on folks like Trump. 
 

I didn't say Japan was justified but you said the following:

The Israel thread has jumped the shark into justification for Japanese 

[futon]

1 hour ago, rmgill said:

Hamas is in a state of war with Israel. It sure does justify an oil embargo. They're lucky they're not getting a response in kind and the sort of total war they WANT to wage on Israel that they cannot. 

For a comparison, think of the Japanese Experience. Imagine Japan never surrendering and a containment policy. How would Japan look for 50 years if the Emperor never issues a Gyokuon-hōsō on August 15, '45.  That'd be good for Japan right? 

Hamas continues to fight, so does Fatah because it's in their specific tribal interest to do so. the only reason they still exist is that their opponents and the world aren't willing to end them like every other conflict of this sort of existential form did. 

A US Nationalists can = a PRC Nationalists. Same game.

 

[rmgill]

1 hour ago, futon said:

I didn't say Japan was justified but you said the following:

The Israel thread has jumped the shark into justification for Japanese 

Sorry, I misunderstood your jumping in talking about the oil embargo. I honestly thought you were initially talking about the '41 oil embargo. Mea culpa!

Edited March 31 by rmgill

[rmgill]

1 hour ago, futon said:

A US Nationalists can = a PRC Nationalists. Same game.

 

Nationalist in China are in fact Kuomintang. Not the CCP. 

They don't have a very direct analog to the US system because foundation-ally we're a republic which is why our right are 'republicans'. with very specific core rules on limited power of government. Which the KMT as an authoritarian one party system did not adhere to. 

/Mr picky. 

Edited March 31 by rmgill

[glenn239]

3 hours ago, rmgill said:

 Imagine Japan never surrendering and a containment policy. 

More like the police surrounding a prison but never actually entering it or taking control of it, but justifying their actions on the basis of whatever thug was running the prison in their absence.    That's Gaza.  

Edited March 31 by glenn239

[R011]

9 hours ago, futon said:

War in China was partly fault on Chinese side.

Yes.  How dare they not do what they were told as if they were an independent country or something.  Just like the Poles and the Ukronazis.

 

[rmgill]

1 hour ago, R011 said:

Yes.  How dare they not do what they were told as if they were an independent country or something.  Just like the Poles and the Ukronazis.

Come on, those Manchu pig farmers were hardly using the place!

[bojan]

6 hours ago, rmgill said:

Nationalist in China are in fact Kuomintang. Not the CCP. 

But they are both Chinese nationalists first, everything else secondary. Anyone who think that KMT ruled China would not have issues with territorial waters and their neighbors is deluding himself.

Edited March 31 by bojan

[rmgill]

Its a precise use of the terms and the alignment. Were Soviet Socialists also nationalist? 

[urbanoid]

12 minutes ago, rmgill said:

Its a precise use of the terms and the alignment. Were Soviet Socialists also nationalist? 

Not many were, as USSR was a very multi-ethnic society, but some Soviet-bloc states were nationalist in various ways. In Asia Uncle Ho and his boys mostly were, also North Korean propaganda is very nationalist, they even described themselves as 'the purest race'. PRC too has one ethnic group that is an absolute majority of the population. 

The funny thing is that the Han Chinese are also an absolute majority in Taiwan, but their new nationalism isn't based on ethnicity, they mostly describe themselves as Taiwanese and would gladly reject the concept of One China as well as the pipe-dream of claiming the rule over the mainland. The problem is that it would probably mean immediate war.

[rmgill]

36 minutes ago, urbanoid said:

Not many were, as USSR was a very multi-ethnic society, but some Soviet-bloc states were nationalist in various ways.

China is also multi ethnic. Mind you the PRC's thing is pushing a Han chinese identity to the detriment of the other various ethnicities.  

36 minutes ago, urbanoid said:

In Asia Uncle Ho and his boys mostly were, also North Korean propaganda is very nationalist, they even described themselves as 'the purest race'. PRC too has one ethnic group that is an absolute majority of the population. 

The DNC could just as easily be argued as nationalist when it comes to big wars. FDR for example. 

[futon]

6 hours ago, R011 said:

War in China was partly fault on Chinese side.

Yes.  How dare they not do what they were told as if they were an independent country or something.  Just like the Poles and the Ukronazis.

One intetesting thing about the Second Sino-Japanese War is what details come out. For example, in by January 1943, both the US/GB side and the Japanese side had a bit of a sentiment competition in China, making prepsrations to announce the end of special rights in the country. The US/GB wanted to do it in unison although GB had reservations because of HK. Japan got its announcement of giving up special rights out first. To the Wang regime though, in January 1943 IIRC. A few days later, the US made similar promise to CKS regime. A few years earlier, the Japanese aim was to use the wang regime to merge it back to the KMT in Chongqing, and thus end the war. A serious prospect is if the CKS side had not been receiving so much aid. The war may very well have ended by 1940.  

The funny thing about right wing American nationalists is that one would figure they be anti-communism. But it was the US action of how they pursued complete destruction of the Japanese empire is exactly how comunism spread so much in Asia. Suppose even if the US side doesn't want to concede Japan gaining more influence in China, they don't seem intetested at all in exoloring how things could have been done differently. The sacred take on everything the US side did in the Pacific war is precisely what consequently undermines it. CKS was dictatorship in Taiwan for three decades. Without a demonstration of self-reflection as to how bad things went as far as democracy due to the Pacific War, then the actually standing on declared principles regarding democractic aspects by some really becomes questionable. Thus becomes a great corrupting agent to the whole franchise.

[urbanoid]

19 minutes ago, rmgill said:

China is also multi ethnic. Mind you the PRC's thing is pushing a Han chinese identity to the detriment of the other various ethnicities.  

The DNC could just as easily be argued as nationalist when it comes to big wars. FDR for example. 

90%+ Han, pushing Han nationalist agenda on (and against) the (relatively) small minorities, yes.

The then-DNC? Yeah, quite possibly, but not due to 'supporting a war'. You can just as easily support them based on nationalist as well as internationalist reasons. 

[rmgill]

Nationalist gets odd. Just as left/right does, because locally it can mean quite different things. For China its a Han chinese nationalism.  For the US its not based on a single nationality, rather a big tent American Nationality that can have National origin Anglo, Vietnamese or African as a member of that group. American is instead of a racial/cultural group identity, its an Idea Identity. 
 

American 'nationalist' had not problem putting down German Nationalists or Italian Nationalist even when it was their parents mother country. 
 

Really its probably better described as patriotic instead of Nationalist.

[futon]

Using rhetoric games with others makes one a nationalists. It's trying to achieve a high moral ground that doesn't exists, thus employing rhetoric games to get a fake moral ground. Patriots don't do that.

Edited April 1 by futon

[rmgill]

Thats just silly. 

[futon]