Dawes Posted March 19 Share Posted March 19 Not sure if this article has all it's facts straight. Is this even practical? https://www.yahoo.com/news/germany-buy-airbus-civil-helicopter-123839237.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dawes Posted March 19 Author Share Posted March 19 Bo-105 was in service as the PAH-1, with HOT missiles as anti-armor capability. So I guess there's some precedent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lucklucky Posted March 20 Share Posted March 20 (edited) Well it does not have armor or gun. Now if they are thinking of just put Spike NLOS 6Gen missiles - those have 50km range from heli and 30km from ground- does not matter. It is just a very fast moving missile launcher and for that it does not to be an hyper expensive Tiger. Edited March 20 by lucklucky Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BansheeOne Posted March 20 Share Posted March 20 Complementing (not replacing entirely) Tiger with H145M was one of the ideas floated in 2020, another being to complement upwards with Apache. More H145M were planned anyway; last year there was talk of 55 under the 100 billion program. 82 would mean an additional 27, coincidentally pretty much the number of Tigers which haven't been upgraded to ASGARD-F standard so far. 24 ATGM/Stinger-equipped aircraft also speak for replacing half of the total Tiger fleet (currently 51, with low availability), while the upgraded rest may be succeeded by a future attack helicopter proper - probably AH-64F or AW249. Or a UAV, but the Business Insider report says given the condition of the Tigers, the fleet will experience a temporary loss of capabilities by 2025, have to shrink from 2027, not be useful for the national defense mission by 2029, and from 2032 five to six aircraft annually will be reduced to scrap value. So it likely won't be a system not already flying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stuart Galbraith Posted March 20 Share Posted March 20 12 hours ago, lucklucky said: Well it does not have armor or gun. Now if they are thinking of just put Spike NLOS 6Gen missiles - those have 50km range from heli and 30km from ground- does not matter. It is just a very fast moving missile launcher and for that it does not to be an hyper expensive Tiger. If they are reaching out that far, why not hang Brimstone on it and be done with it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BansheeOne Posted March 20 Share Posted March 20 H145M has already been tested with Spike ER2. No need to look any further for a time-critical solution. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seahawk Posted March 20 Share Posted March 20 If you consider the availability rates of Tiger was H145, that makes a lot of sense. 24 H145 + 24-30 AH-64 or AW-249 would be a huge step forward. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alejandro_ Posted March 20 Share Posted March 20 1 hour ago, seahawk said: If you consider the availability rates of Tiger was H145, that makes a lot of sense. 24 H145 + 24-30 AH-64 or AW-249 would be a huge step forward. Note that Cyprus has replaced Mi-35P with H145M. Reasons were not too dissimilar: Hinds were going to need a MLU, and getting spare parts was complicated. Of course you will lose firepower and other capabilities, but the money saved can be invested in other equipment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AETiglathPZ Posted March 20 Share Posted March 20 20 hours ago, lucklucky said: Well it does not have armor or gun. Now if they are thinking of just put Spike NLOS 6Gen missiles - those have 50km range from heli and 30km from ground- does not matter. It is just a very fast moving missile launcher and for that it does not to be an hyper expensive Tiger. Maybe also following Japan's lead in looking at UAV's as the future of slow and low for CAS. Worst case scenario is that you have a UH-72 Lakota with sensors incase anti-tank becomes a task for other platforms. But a Spike NLOS equipped helicopter with drones to scout would be a nice setup. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lucklucky Posted March 20 Share Posted March 20 9 hours ago, Stuart Galbraith said: If they are reaching out that far, why not hang Brimstone on it and be done with it? Why Brimstone? it has not the visual guidance flexibility of Spike. Also Germany have Spikes in their army and is the other part of EuroSpike consortium with Israel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stuart Galbraith Posted March 21 Share Posted March 21 Because why do you need a visual guidence system, if you can plink missiles from affar and never get line of sight with the target? All you need is a drone to tell you roughtly where the target is. Yes, there is an NLOS version, but you only have to read the account of how it performed in Afghanistan in British service to realise why they are now talking about mounting Brimstone on vehicles rather than persevering with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BansheeOne Posted March 21 Share Posted March 21 That's not a system we will have in place two to four years down the road when it's needed, it's not what the Bundeswehr wants, Spike is already introduced with the Heer in the LR version, Spike ER is also planned to equip the AW249 which we might chose to replace the remaining Tigers, and fucking around playing "make a wish" with a helicopter which has so far unusually been delivered on time and budget in currently serving variants is sure to make it come late and over budget. Which is the exact bullshit that has plagued Western procurement for the last three decades and got us into the situation we're in, and we should terminate any such attempts with extreme prejudice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stuart Galbraith Posted March 21 Share Posted March 21 Whats vapourware about it, it was live fired off Apache 7 years ago. https://www.mbda-systems.com/press-releases/mbda-demonstrates-brimstone-missile-live-firing-from-apache-helicopter/ Cannot see the sense in any system that has a helicopter hovering line of sight within range of viable air defences. Ukraine has pointed this out pretty clearly. Ive no love for the Ukrainian and Russian pray and spray rocket attacks, but it points to a very severe reality problem in using Helicopters above a modern battlefield. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BansheeOne Posted March 21 Share Posted March 21 Nothing is vapourware about Brimstone, which is not what I said, so don't go Ryan. Negotiating, integrating, testing and certifying a system over one that is already integrated and tested will however lead to time and cost overruns when we need to start replacing Tigers in 2025-27. We have enough trouble getting stuff to work which the Good Idea Fairy descended upon 20 years ago, and we can absolutely not afford such nonsense now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stuart Galbraith Posted March 21 Share Posted March 21 Im just suggesting hanging a Brimstone on a Helicopter is not vapourware, its already been done, not that Brimstone is vapourware. Im not being Ryan when I point to the ability to launch the weapon from a ground frame, developed in weeks, illustrates that integrating it with a helicopter airframe is very likely not exactly a challenging task. As said, much of the work has already been done. Yes, you want a capability, I get that. I dont personally think a capability that is putting airframes and crews at risk is a great idea. But as long as the paperwork gets done and the boxes get ticked, I guess it doesnt matter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seahawk Posted March 21 Share Posted March 21 Brimstone so not integrated with the H145 or A249, Spike is. And for once Germany could buy something off the shelf that works. Spike has also been validated on the AH-64. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DB Posted March 21 Share Posted March 21 Brimstone isn't formally integrated with the Apache, either. It's de-risked (those firings mentioned above), but not integrated. This is similar to the ASRAAM firings - early versions were test fired on F-16, but it's not integrated on those platforms anywhere. Block 4 was obviously cleared for F/A-18 use with the Australians, but I bet it isn't cleared for any other F/A-18s in service anywhere. Besides, Germany's procurement agency doesn't seem to like MBDA, as I've hinted at before. Aside from Enforcer and some seed money for laser VSHORAD, both of which sit firmly within the German division, they're really not keen, presumably as it means money spent mainly in France and the UK. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dawes Posted March 21 Author Share Posted March 21 Well, the H145M is an attractive aircraft. Remember, it's not just about how you fight - it's how you LOOK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lucklucky Posted March 21 Share Posted March 21 8 hours ago, Stuart Galbraith said: Because why do you need a visual guidence system, if you can plink missiles from affar and never get line of sight with the target? All you need is a drone to tell you roughtly where the target is. Yes, there is an NLOS version, but you only have to read the account of how it performed in Afghanistan in British service to realise why they are now talking about mounting Brimstone on vehicles rather than persevering with it. Because you can cancel the firing for example and you can also handover the missile control from a ship to an helicopter to a drone. No system is perfect tough, it would be probably better to have different guidance type heads. The Spike you had in Afghanistan was an old version from 80's or 90's. I don't think was even called Spike when it was born. Brimstone was chosen because it is British industry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dawes Posted March 21 Author Share Posted March 21 For a relatively dated design Hellfire still seems to be selling well, although this request may be for ground launch version (?) https://www.dsca.mil/sites/default/files/mas/Press Release - Poland 23-23 CN.pdf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lucklucky Posted March 21 Share Posted March 21 Poland apparently ordered 96 Apache. No ones wants to spend loads of money integrating armament unless it has a very worthwhile own industry competitor . I can only see attack helicopters withing visual range having any value n situations of a breaktrough of own army or by enemy army. it mobility can matter as reinforcement. Otherwise they will get what happened with observation aircraft in WW2: too many losses. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stuart Galbraith Posted March 21 Share Posted March 21 17 minutes ago, lucklucky said: Because you can cancel the firing for example and you can also handover the missile control from a ship to an helicopter to a drone. No system is perfect tough, it would be probably better to have different guidance type heads. The Spike you had in Afghanistan was an old version from 80's or 90's. I don't think was even called Spike when it was born. Brimstone was chosen because it is British industry. Actually Spike overheated, and they reportedly had to fund development of new version that was viable. It was probably an emergency procurement, which means it all gets junked when the requirement finished. Brimstone wasn't bought because it was British. If you think that you aren't aware how open mod procurement is, to the point of cutting our defence industry's throat to save pennies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daan Posted March 21 Share Posted March 21 (edited) Here is some information on the UK experience with an older generation Spike NLOS / Tamuz missile in Afghanistan, supposedly the resolution was not great and the launch vehicle (M113) unreliable in the environment encountered. However, what would have been the alternative in those days? There was none and the missile was heavily used. Furthermore, the missile has been maintained in the RA's inventory ever since. The Spike missile family has been in service for nearly two decades on IDF Cobra and Apache combat helicopters. Furthermore, the Germany defense industry has invested heavily in its relation with the Israeli missile giant Rafael (i.e. Eurospike, Spice 250 and 250ER) including domestic production of Israeli designs, that have in turn been exported to other European countries. A belated change to the Brimstone missile, whatever its qualities, would make no sense. Israeli AH-64D with Spike missile in its container. Edited March 21 by Daan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lucklucky Posted March 23 Share Posted March 23 https://www.defensenews.com/digital-show-dailies/dsei/2019/08/27/can-an-israeli-missile-give-us-army-aviation-an-advantage-in-future-warfare/ I guess Lockheed is preparing to present it as not so interim missile https://insidedefense.com/insider/army-conducts-successful-test-israeli-spike-nlos-missile-system-upgraded-apache Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lucklucky Posted March 23 Share Posted March 23 New AW-249 photos now in militar colours. https://theaviationist.com/2023/03/22/prototype-of-aw249-attack-helicopter-in-combat-livery-flies-for-the-first-time/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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