Rick's Sunday School in burning Kiev

[seahawk]

1 hour ago, Rick said:

He did not. He attempted to show an evolution of an established species, not an origin. 

The whole idea is the same as saying you can throw 5000 Lego bricks into a washing machine and only if you let it run long enough, the bricks will form a Star Destroyer. Every living thing on the planet is made by God and it is perfect in the way it is, because God is perfect. 

[rmgill]

Interestingly enough, if you throw chemicals into a container and then add an electric charge you in fact get chemistry. So if those legos had a weak force attractor then yes, they might assemble into something more complex. Materials and chemicals can organize into membranes and structures. Those can lend to mesogenetic forms which absorb and filter which can lend to other more complex forms. 

[sunday]

One problem is the time all that random processes need to produce more than a few organic molecules, for starters. Then, it seems mutation rate, and time to fix those mutations do not match with current biodiversity.

From a theological point of view, Catholics have no problem accepting evolution of the body. However, there are two transitions that do require Divine intervention, the pass from no life to life, and the pass from no human soul to human soul.

[Steven P Allen]

1 hour ago, seahawk said:

The whole idea is the same as saying you can throw 5000 Lego bricks into a washing machine and only if you let it run long enough, the bricks will form a Star Destroyer. Every living thing on the planet is made by God and it is perfect in the way it is, because God is perfect. 

Well, perfect in the beginning but now corrupted, diseased by the introduction of sin, which diseased the entire creation.

The only cure is the redemption offered by Christ, Who suffered, died, and was buried, and, on the third day, He rose again.  Timely enough, as tomorrow is Maundy Thursday, the next day is Good Friday, and this Sunday is Easter.

This truth is the heart of Christianity:  recognition of our sin--all have sinned and fall short of the holy perfection demanded by a Holy God, not one is righteous--and trusting that Christ takes it away and imputes to us His righteousness, of which we have none of our own.  We can do nothing to achieve righteous standing before God; we simply have faith that we are justified by our faith in Christ alone.  That faith, if it is genuine, will move us to try to work good, to serve our neighbors (which includes all the reprobates--i.e. everyone--on this Grate Site), but which works earn nothing.  Genuine faith is a gift of the Holy Spirit and is available to all.  You don't even have to "accept" it:  all you have to do is NOT reject it and allow it to work in you.

[Rick]

2 hours ago, rmgill said:

Interestingly enough, if you throw chemicals into a container and then add an electric charge you in fact get chemistry. So if those legos had a weak force attractor then yes, they might assemble into something more complex. Materials and chemicals can organize into membranes and structures. Those can lend to mesogenetic forms which absorb and filter which can lend to other more complex forms. 

Not really. You would need to conditions to be just right for this to occur. Just a few things that must be right for the above to occur is the correct distance from of the earth from the sun, the right amount of gravity, the right amount of oxygen and the right amount of carbon dioxide, atmospheric transparency, the right amount of gravity, etc.

And, by the way, who created these chemicals? Astrophysicist Hugh Ross has calculated the odds of life happening by chance is 10 to the 138th. 

[rmgill]

How many stars? How many planets? 
 

Also, if everything needs a godly guiding hand, do you then not have free will? Does it all become just a variation on inshallah? 

Edited April 5, 2023 by rmgill

[Rick]

53 minutes ago, rmgill said:

How many stars? How many planets? You'll need to ask Mr. Ross. For Earth, see my post.
Also, if everything needs a godly guiding hand, do you then not have free will?

Everyone has free will. Just not free consequences. 

Does it all become just a variation on inshallah? ?

 

[seahawk]

2 hours ago, Steven P Allen said:

Well, perfect in the beginning but now corrupted, diseased by the introduction of sin, which diseased the entire creation.

The only cure is the redemption offered by Christ, Who suffered, died, and was buried, and, on the third day, He rose again.  Timely enough, as tomorrow is Maundy Thursday, the next day is Good Friday, and this Sunday is Easter.

This truth is the heart of Christianity:  recognition of our sin--all have sinned and fall short of the holy perfection demanded by a Holy God, not one is righteous--and trusting that Christ takes it away and imputes to us His righteousness, of which we have none of our own.  We can do nothing to achieve righteous standing before God; we simply have faith that we are justified by our faith in Christ alone.  That faith, if it is genuine, will move us to try to work good, to serve our neighbors (which includes all the reprobates--i.e. everyone--on this Grate Site), but which works earn nothing.  Genuine faith is a gift of the Holy Spirit and is available to all.  You don't even have to "accept" it:  all you have to do is NOT reject it and allow it to work in you.

The body is perfect, we are not. Only our actions and our decisions make us sinners and only Jesus can save you.

Edited April 5, 2023 by seahawk

[R011]

1 hour ago, Rick said:

Not really. You would need to conditions to be just right for this to occur. Just a few things that must be right for the above to occur is the correct distance from of the earth from the sun, the right amount of gravity, the right amount of oxygen and the right amount of carbon dioxide, atmospheric transparency, the right amount of gravity, etc.

And, by the way, who created these chemicals? Astrophysicist Hugh Ross has calculated the odds of life happening by chance is 10 to the 138th. 

The chance of anything else happening is pretty much the same.  Yet something is going to happen.  Perhaps a god is directing things, we really have no way to know for sure, but that just leads to the question of where did that god come from?  If the god just exists without a creator, then so could the universe and why add an extra complication by adding a creator?

[Rick]

47 minutes ago, R011 said:

The chance of anything else happening is pretty much the same.  Yet something is going to happen.  Perhaps a god is directing things, we really have no way to know for sure, but that just leads to the question of where did that god come from?  If the god just exists without a creator, then so could the universe and why add an extra complication by adding a creator?

The one constant is that God has always existed. He has no birth and no death.

[R011]

1 hour ago, Rick said:

The one constant is that God has always existed. He has no birth and no death.

Why multiply things unnessarily?  If God can exist without creation, then so can the universe.

Nor is there any proof of your claim.  All you have is the word of people who claim God told them who have themselves provided no proof that He did.  People can't even agree on the same story or the same god who has allegedly told them.

Now I can't prove gods don't exist, but I don't need to.  I have a workable hypotheis of how the wuniverse started and workable theories that expalin  enough of the observed data to satisfy me.   If you want to believe based on faith, fine, but you can't convincingly explain your belief with reason - and you don't have to.

[seahawk]

God is everything, he is the start and the end. Humans can never understand what he does, they just need to love him.

[Rick]

13 hours ago, R011 said:

Why multiply things unnessarily?  If God can exist without creation, then so can the universe.

Nor is there any proof of your claim.  All you have is the word of people who claim God told them who have themselves provided no proof that He did.  People can't even agree on the same story or the same god who has allegedly told them.

Now I can't prove gods don't exist, but I don't need to.  I have a workable hypotheis of how the wuniverse started and workable theories that expalin  enough of the observed data to satisfy me.   If you want to believe based on faith, fine, but you can't convincingly explain your belief with reason - and you don't have to.

Then you have more (fallible)faith than me. 

[Sardaukar]

Well, only fanatics never at least consider other options...

[NickM]

4 hours ago, Sardaukar said:

Well, only fanatics never at least consider other options...

If you're trying to make some sort of DAESH comparison? 

[Sardaukar]

50 minutes ago, NickM said:

If you're trying to make some sort of DAESH comparison? 

If the shoe fits... 

But DAESH is bit another kettle of soup. Ultra-religious Americans do sometimes express similar radical views, just from different spectrum and ways. 

[FALightFighter]

It Couldn't Just Happen, by Lawrence O. Richards, seems like it might be related.

https://www.amazon.com/Couldnt-Just-Happen-Knowing-Creation/dp/1400317142

[R011]

7 hours ago, Rick said:

Then you have more (fallible)faith than me. 

Faith?  No.  Just logic.  One of the competing hypotheses requires more entities than the other.  The additional entity is superfluous.  Nor is there any other compelling evidence such entities exist.  Show some compelling evidence (and the contents of one of hundreds of holy books doesn't count) and I'll change my mind.

[R011]

7 hours ago, Sardaukar said:

Well, only fanatics never at least consider other options...

Rather a broad brush isn't it?  Many quite devout people who will stick to their core beliefs cannot  be considered fanatic.

[NickM]

1 hour ago, Sardaukar said:

If the shoe fits... 

But DAESH is bit another kettle of soup. Ultra-religious Americans do sometimes express similar radical views, just from different spectrum and ways. 

Call me when Rick or any other American evangelical saws off somebody's head

A

[seahawk]

10 minutes ago, NickM said:

Call me when Rick or any other American evangelical saws off somebody's head

A

I would not be insulted by it, because they at least believe in God. The atheists and liberals do not.

[NickM]

4 hours ago, seahawk said:

I would not be insulted by it, because they at least believe in God. The atheists and liberals do not.

Not insulted,  just appalled at comparison 

Edited April 6, 2023 by NickM

[Sardaukar]

15 hours ago, R011 said:

Rather a broad brush isn't it?  Many quite devout people who will stick to their core beliefs cannot  be considered fanatic.

Well, maybe not fanatic...but certainly bit narrow-minded.

Not that I have problems with anyone's religion that much...as long as they keep it within themselves. 

[Rick]

On 4/5/2023 at 4:18 PM, R011 said:

Why multiply things unnessarily?  If God can exist without creation, then so can the universe.

Nor is there any proof of your claim.  All you have is the word of people who claim God told them who have themselves provided no proof that He did.  People can't even agree on the same story or the same god who has allegedly told them.

Now I can't prove gods don't exist, but I don't need to.  I have a workable hypotheis of how the wuniverse started and workable theories that expalin  enough of the observed data to satisfy me.   If you want to believe based on faith, fine, but you can't convincingly explain your belief with reason - and you don't have to.

Read about Jesus. If you have an open mind.

[R011]

3 hours ago, Rick said:

Read about Jesus. If you have an open mind.

I already have, thanks.  A lot of propaganda, rumour, and legends from Christian sources, none written during his life, and the earliest Gospel being written a generation after it.  Frankly, it's less convincing than what's been written by and about Muhammad.

Edited April 8, 2023 by R011