Sardaukar Posted April 8, 2023 Share Posted April 8, 2023 Old Testament is way more fun, I must say. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sunday Posted April 8, 2023 Share Posted April 8, 2023 6 hours ago, R011 said: I already have, thanks. A lot of propaganda, rumour, and legends from Christian sources, none written during his life, and the earliest Gospel being written a generation after it. Frankly, it's less convincing than what's been written by and about Muhammad. More on that... https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/apr/14/what-is-the-historical-evidence-that-jesus-christ-lived-and-died Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sunday Posted April 8, 2023 Share Posted April 8, 2023 6 hours ago, R011 said: I already have, thanks. A lot of propaganda, rumour, and legends from Christian sources, none written during his life, and the earliest Gospel being written a generation after it. Frankly, it's less convincing than what's been written by and about Muhammad. More on that... https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/apr/14/what-is-the-historical-evidence-that-jesus-christ-lived-and-died Quote (...) Did ancient writers discuss the existence of Jesus? Strikingly, there was never any debate in the ancient world about whether Jesus of Nazareth was a historical figure. In the earliest literature of the Jewish Rabbis, Jesus was denounced as the illegitimate child of Mary and a sorcerer. Among pagans, the satirist Lucian and philosopher Celsus dismissed Jesus as a scoundrel, but we know of no one in the ancient world who questioned whether Jesus lived. (...) These abundant historical references leave us with little reasonable doubt that Jesus lived and died. The more interesting question – which goes beyond history and objective fact – is whether Jesus died and lived. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick Posted April 8, 2023 Share Posted April 8, 2023 6 hours ago, R011 said: I already have, thanks. A lot of propaganda, rumour, and legends from Christian sources, none written during his life, and the earliest Gospel being written a generation after it. Frankly, it's less convincing than what's been written by and about Muhammad. Well, if one has a truly open and curious mind about Christianity you can start with Nabeel Qureshi. He has many videos and books about Christianity and Islam. Another ex-secular investigator is Lee Strobel. Again, if a person is really open to more knowledge these two individuals are a good start. Thank your for your comments. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick Posted April 8, 2023 Share Posted April 8, 2023 4 hours ago, Sardaukar said: Old Testament is way more fun, I must say. As a reader, maybe not so much as a participate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick Posted April 8, 2023 Share Posted April 8, 2023 (edited) Sorry for the long link, but it is an excellent short version of the Bible. voddie+baucham+on+why+he+believes+the+bible+is+real&oq=vod&aqs=chrome.1.69i57j35i39l2j69i59j46i131i433i512j46i433i512j46i199i433i465i512j46i131i433i512j0i131i433i512j0i433i512.10059j0j15&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8#fpstate=ive&vld=cid:7867827c,vid:nMfKlqMNnw0 Edited April 8, 2023 by Rick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stuart Galbraith Posted April 8, 2023 Share Posted April 8, 2023 Happy Easter everyone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R011 Posted April 8, 2023 Share Posted April 8, 2023 8 hours ago, Rick said: Well, if one has a truly open and curious mind about Christianity you can start with Nabeel Qureshi. He has many videos and books about Christianity and Islam. Another ex-secular investigator is Lee Strobel. Again, if a person is really open to more knowledge these two individuals are a good start. Thank your for your comments. You mean if I want to waste time reading a Christian activist's sales pitch. No thanks. For that matter, I have little interest in reading books trying to sell Atheism or any other faith. Look, to accept the Bible as a source requires first that one believes in God. Second that one believes the books of the Bible were written with Divine guidance, and finally, that the men who chose those books to be part of Scripture were guided by God. If one doesn't believe in God in the first place, then the Bible is just another collection of writings no more conclusive than the Iliad and Odyssey, the Koran, or the Book of Mormon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick Posted April 8, 2023 Share Posted April 8, 2023 From a friend for tomorrow... Why did Jesus fold the linen burial cloth after His resurrection? The Gospel of John (20:7) tells us that the napkin, which was placed over the face of Jesus, was not just thrown aside like the grave clothes. The Bible takes an entire verse to tell us that the napkin was neatly folded, and was placed at the head of that stony coffin. Early Sunday morning, while it was still dark, Mary Magdalene came to the tomb and found that the stone had been rolled away from the entrance. She ran and found Simon Peter and the other disciple, the one whom Jesus loved. She said, 'They have taken the Lord's body out of the tomb, and I don't know where they have put him!' Peter and the other disciple ran to the tomb to see. The other disciple out ran Peter and got there first. He stopped and looked in and saw the linen cloth lying there, but he didn't go in. Then Simon Peter arrived and went inside. He also noticed the linen wrappings lying there, while the cloth that had covered Jesus' head was folded up and lying to the side. Was that important? Yes! In order to understand the significance of the folded napkin, you have to understand a little bit about Hebrew tradition of that day. The folded napkin had to do with the Master and Servant, and every Jewish boy knew this tradition. When the servant set the dinner table for the master, he made sure that it was exactly the way the master wanted it. The table was furnished perfectly, and then the servant would wait, just out of sight, until the master had finished eating, and the servant would not dare touch that table, until the master was finished.. Now if the master were done eating, he would rise from the table, wipe his fingers, his mouth, and clean his beard, and would wad up that napkin and toss it onto the table. The servant would then know to clear the table. For in those days, the wadded napkin meant, "I'm finished.." But if the master got up from the table, and folded his napkin, and laid it beside his plate, the servant would not dare touch the table, because..........The folded napkin meant, "I'm coming back!" #heisrisen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sardaukar Posted April 8, 2023 Share Posted April 8, 2023 (edited) So..did your friend met Jesus (Yehoshua) to have this vision? None of that actually has anything to do how Jewish people dined back then or even now. I doubt Jesus and his disciples ever dined that way. Since back then, they were Jewish by tradition. Everything in that would point out to upper class who actually had servants. To edit: We could go and look at backgrounds of Apostoles.... Edited April 8, 2023 by Sardaukar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick Posted April 8, 2023 Share Posted April 8, 2023 1 hour ago, Sardaukar said: So..did your friend met Jesus (Yehoshua) to have this vision? Not yet None of that actually has anything to do how Jewish people dined back then or even now. I doubt Jesus and his disciples ever dined that way. Since back then, they were Jewish by tradition. Everything in that would point out to upper class who actually had servants. Honest question, are you missing the meaning, specifically, the emphasis of the folded napkin? To edit: We could go and look at backgrounds of Apostoles.... OK 🙏 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick Posted April 8, 2023 Share Posted April 8, 2023 2 hours ago, R011 said: You mean if I want to waste time reading a Christian activist's sales pitch. No thanks. For that matter, I have little interest in reading books trying to sell Atheism or any other faith. Look, to accept the Bible as a source requires first that one believes in God. Second that one believes the books of the Bible were written with Divine guidance, and finally, that the men who chose those books to be part of Scripture were guided by God. If one doesn't believe in God in the first place, then the Bible is just another collection of writings no more conclusive than the Iliad and Odyssey, the Koran, or the Book of Mormon. Hhmmm, a limited and disappointing view of life from my perspective. In all honesty,best of success to you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sardaukar Posted April 8, 2023 Share Posted April 8, 2023 16 minutes ago, Rick said: Hhmmm, a limited and disappointing view of life from my perspective. In all honesty,best of success to you. I am not disrespecting your religion . I am just approaching this from historical Jewish and Roman history. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick Posted April 8, 2023 Share Posted April 8, 2023 21 minutes ago, Sardaukar said: I am not disrespecting your religion . I am just approaching this from historical Jewish and Roman history. My reply was in response to RO11's last post to me. I did not intend it as a reply to you. If I did, my error. But to go on about old Jewish and Roman history! Not trying to "brown nose" you, but your posts are informative and, to me, appreciated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sardaukar Posted April 8, 2023 Share Posted April 8, 2023 Just now, Rick said: My reply was in response to RO11's last post to me. I did not intend it as a reply to you. If I did, my error. But to go on about old Jewish and Roman history! Not trying to "brown nose" you, but your posts are informative and, to me, appreciated. None hurt feelings, I like these debates I have read Bible through and through, quite a few times. History is my hobby and I have friends of some theological academics. We could start with... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_the_Apostle Who in my view was absolutely misogynist bastard, though perfectly fine for his time. We really cannot try to judge people by modern standards, just by standards of times they did live in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sunday Posted April 10, 2023 Share Posted April 10, 2023 (edited) https://media.gab.com/cdn-cgi/image/width=1225,quality=100,fit=scale-down/system/media_attachments/files/134/816/467/original/99d5f52de66b7c2e.jpeg Edited April 10, 2023 by sunday Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R011 Posted April 10, 2023 Share Posted April 10, 2023 On 4/8/2023 at 7:08 PM, Sardaukar said: None hurt feelings, I like these debates I have read Bible through and through, quite a few times. History is my hobby and I have friends of some theological academics. We could start with... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_the_Apostle Who in my view was absolutely misogynist bastard, though perfectly fine for his time. We really cannot try to judge people by modern standards, just by standards of times they did live in. Paul seems to be th4e earliest documented mention of Christianity. The next would probably be Mark about AD 66, just after Paul's death, and then a couple of other sources, including Josephus, that mention followers of Christ in passing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seahawk Posted April 11, 2023 Author Share Posted April 11, 2023 On 4/8/2023 at 10:41 PM, Rick said: From a friend for tomorrow... Why did Jesus fold the linen burial cloth after His resurrection? The Gospel of John (20:7) tells us that the napkin, which was placed over the face of Jesus, was not just thrown aside like the grave clothes. The Bible takes an entire verse to tell us that the napkin was neatly folded, and was placed at the head of that stony coffin. Early Sunday morning, while it was still dark, Mary Magdalene came to the tomb and found that the stone had been rolled away from the entrance. She ran and found Simon Peter and the other disciple, the one whom Jesus loved. She said, 'They have taken the Lord's body out of the tomb, and I don't know where they have put him!' Peter and the other disciple ran to the tomb to see. The other disciple out ran Peter and got there first. He stopped and looked in and saw the linen cloth lying there, but he didn't go in. Then Simon Peter arrived and went inside. He also noticed the linen wrappings lying there, while the cloth that had covered Jesus' head was folded up and lying to the side. Was that important? Yes! In order to understand the significance of the folded napkin, you have to understand a little bit about Hebrew tradition of that day. The folded napkin had to do with the Master and Servant, and every Jewish boy knew this tradition. When the servant set the dinner table for the master, he made sure that it was exactly the way the master wanted it. The table was furnished perfectly, and then the servant would wait, just out of sight, until the master had finished eating, and the servant would not dare touch that table, until the master was finished.. Now if the master were done eating, he would rise from the table, wipe his fingers, his mouth, and clean his beard, and would wad up that napkin and toss it onto the table. The servant would then know to clear the table. For in those days, the wadded napkin meant, "I'm finished.." But if the master got up from the table, and folded his napkin, and laid it beside his plate, the servant would not dare touch the table, because..........The folded napkin meant, "I'm coming back!" #heisrisen Such details get lost, if you read the bible without an open heart. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steven P Allen Posted April 12, 2023 Share Posted April 12, 2023 On 4/8/2023 at 12:53 AM, Sardaukar said: Old Testament is way more fun, I must say. The Old Testament's purpose is to reveal God's love by pointing to the Messiah, and its fulfillment is found throughout in Jesus. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick Posted April 16, 2023 Share Posted April 16, 2023 (edited) On 4/8/2023 at 7:08 PM, Sardaukar said: None hurt feelings, I like these debates I have read Bible through and through, quite a few times. History is my hobby and I have friends of some theological academics. We could start with... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_the_Apostle Who in my view was absolutely misogynist bastard, though perfectly fine for his time. We really cannot try to judge people by modern standards, just by standards of times they did live in. Well.... about Paul's "misogyny." Priscilla and Aquila were a Jewish wife and husband who became good friends of Paul and his ministry as mentioned several times in the Bible with her name first more often than not. Chloe was an important member of the church in Corinth who Paul responded to by visting that church in 1 Corinthians. Phoebe was another supporter of Jesus and Paul as mentioned in Romans 16. Lydia in Acts was another follower of Jesus and a supporter of Paul. There are other women mentioned by Paul who worshipped Jesus and supported his ministry, among them in Romans 16 are Junia and Mary. To me, a most interesting passage is Acts 9:36-41 concerning Dorcas and Peter, an associate of Pauls. It would seem to me that there are many women at that time who have heard Paul speak and act and did not consider him "misogynistic" as their actions speak louder than today's words. Edited April 16, 2023 by Rick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sunday Posted April 16, 2023 Share Posted April 16, 2023 Matthew 7:6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick Posted April 16, 2023 Share Posted April 16, 2023 Goes with Matthew 10:12-20 also. However, so far, I have not read anything yet from this Grate Site's posters who, imo, warrant this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sunday Posted April 16, 2023 Share Posted April 16, 2023 19 minutes ago, Rick said: Goes with Matthew 10:12-20 also. However, so far, I have not read anything yet from this Grate Site's posters who, imo, warrant this. I do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sardaukar Posted April 16, 2023 Share Posted April 16, 2023 3 hours ago, Rick said: Goes with Matthew 10:12-20 also. However, so far, I have not read anything yet from this Grate Site's posters who, imo, warrant this. Very peaceful.... Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. 35 For I have come to turn “‘a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law— 36 a man’s enemies will be the members of his own household.’ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sardaukar Posted April 16, 2023 Share Posted April 16, 2023 (edited) So how actually that works with Jesus' message about peace? As bonus, that you have not read about things is not really a valid argument Edited April 16, 2023 by Sardaukar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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