seahawk Posted March 12 Share Posted March 12 13 hours ago, glenn239 said: A long post in reply because I feel chatty. I became interested in foreign policy stuff in the 1990's and the origins of WW1. After a number of years, by 1999, I'd come to the strong conclusion that, for all the faults of Austria and Germany, that a different British foreign policy could have overcome the inertia into a world war. Specifically, they'd made two grave error in policy. Worse yet, they did not seem to understand that these were mistakes. First, after the Franco-Prussian war, before the turn of the century, they dropped their traditional support of Austria in the Balkans in favor of a much more destabilizing pro-Russian policy. Secondly, they overturned the 1870 policy based on the neutrality of Belgium (as expressed in dual treaties Britain signed in Paris and Berlin that year as their war was starting) in favor of the Entente policy in which France and Russia were first, and Belgium was a pretext. Why they did this I concluded is because a select few of what would now be called neocon types were in control of foreign policy, and this breed tends to evolve ideologies that sound peaceful but are in practice far more likely to cause wars than prevent them. It's not that the British were deliberately wanting to cause a war, it's that in the wake of the Prussian victory in 1871, their mindset drifted so out of tune to the required European political equilibrium that only an exceptional German chancellor could have wended the minefield. And Germany had only ever had one of those. After the turn of the century, (especially Iraq in 2003) I watched this same type of individual botch war after war, and I came to the conclusion that in neocon circles, there is no check on stupidity. That is to say, in the old German army they would identify energetic but incompetent officers and kick them out of the army. But an army has objective tests such as military exercises to get rid of idiots. In politics, everything is subjective so the more stupid and energetic someone is, the higher they can rise. The difference with neocons as opposed to other political idiots is only neocons specialize in urging their nations into fighting wars. So, while their opinions may be stupid, the wars they advocate are of the same kind of objective reality that the old Prussian officers corps used to weed out energetic idiots. Except, in the nuclear era, we no longer have the luxury of "oopsies" wars like Iraq, or Libya, etc. Today, Russia invading Ukraine is the only thing that counts because Russia did it. Had Ukraine started the war by attacking Donbas, the West would take the position that Russia was still the aggressor. Western policy is controlled by the same small group of actors that are neocons, and this breed specializes in a kind of members only occult where the more subtle causes of war, or diplomatic possibilties, tend to get stampeded. The cabal in power wants Russia destroyed, because it is the last bulwark against the woke domination and Russia still supports Christian values. The powers that wanted to destroy Trump also want to destroy Russia. They desire complete global domination. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Josh Posted March 12 Share Posted March 12 2 hours ago, seahawk said: The cabal in power wants Russia destroyed, because it is the last bulwark against the woke domination and Russia still supports Christian values. The powers that wanted to destroy Trump also want to destroy Russia. They desire complete global domination. Because I when I think “good Christian” I think of the guy that cheated on all three of his wives and the guy who’s had more people thrown out windows than Al Capone! “Christian” seems to have become code for white nationalism in order to give it some kind of moral veneer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ink Posted March 12 Share Posted March 12 I can see this thread is doing well... 🙃 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick Posted March 12 Share Posted March 12 1 hour ago, Josh said: Because I when I think “good Christian” I think of the guy that cheated on all three of his wives and the guy who’s had more people thrown out windows than Al Capone! “Christian” seems to have become code for white nationalism in order to give it some kind of moral veneer. First paragraph, read the Bible. Just a suggestion, but start with the Four Gospels. Second paragraph is unclear. "White Nationalism" is a made-up word used by some liberals -- using the U.S. definition of liberal -- as a racist, Chrisitanphobic noun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Josh Posted March 13 Share Posted March 13 On 3/12/2023 at 9:31 AM, Rick said: First paragraph, read the Bible. Just a suggestion, but start with the Four Gospels. Second paragraph is unclear. "White Nationalism" is a made-up word used by some liberals -- using the U.S. definition of liberal -- as a racist, Chrisitanphobic noun. Both paragraphs: live in whatever fiction you believe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R011 Posted March 14 Share Posted March 14 (edited) On 3/12/2023 at 9:31 AM, Rick said: First paragraph, read the Bible. Just a suggestion, but start with the Four Gospels. Second paragraph is unclear. "White Nationalism" is a made-up word used by some liberals -- using the U.S. definition of liberal -- as a racist, Chrisitanphobic noun. Rick, there are some people who call themselves Christian who have complet\lley missed the point. Some of those are on the right in the US and have claimed that White Supremacism is (somehow) ordained by Christ. Not only would Christ not recognize them as Christian, but if they met Him in person, they'd want to lynch Him for being brown skinned and uppity. These are the so-called White nationalists. Like fascist, that term gets expanded by the Left to describe anyone insufficiently Woke as well as real assholes. In a Rusia/Ukraine contest, they're also the kind of Christian that Putin and his cronies are. They've identified the Russian Orthodox Church as not just the True Church, but as a legitimizer of Putin's aggression. Incicentally, there's no lack of Atrheists who think they're being clever and witty when going out of their way to disparage people whose religious beliefs differ from theirs. Hyposcrisy and intolerance are far from exclusive to any one group. Edited March 14 by R011 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick Posted March 14 Share Posted March 14 8 hours ago, R011 said: Rick, there are some people who call themselves Christian who have complet\lley missed the point. Some of those are on the right in the US and have claimed that White Supremacism is (somehow) ordained by Christ. Not only would Christ not recognize them as Christian, but if they met Him in person, they'd want to lynch Him for being brown skinned and uppity. These are the so-called White nationalists. Like fascist, that term gets expanded by the Left to describe anyone insufficiently Woke as well as real assholes. In a Rusia/Ukraine contest, they're also the kind of Christian that Putin and his cronies are. They've identified the Russian Orthodox Church as not just the True Church, but as a legitimizer of Putin's aggression. Incicentally, there's no lack of Atrheists who think they're being clever and witty when going out of their way to disparage people whose religious beliefs differ from theirs. Hyposcrisy and intolerance are far from exclusive to any one group. I cannot deny there are a few "White Christians" who equate this with White Supremacy. However Galatians 3:28 invalidates this view. One has to look to see if this is based on race or culture, for the two are not the same. These individuals do not have a significant role in U.S. culture. I do not know enough of Russia and the Ukraine to comment, and I totally agree with your last paragraph and especially your last sentence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick Posted March 14 Share Posted March 14 (edited) 19 hours ago, Josh said: Both paragraphs: live in whatever fiction you believe. https://www.foxnews.com/lifestyle/pro-life-father-shares-bold-hopeful-message-i-was-conceived-in-rape-adopted-in-love https://thelifeinstitute.net/learning-centre/abortion-effects/children/conceived-in-rape Edited March 14 by Rick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Timo Posted March 14 Share Posted March 14 Better not confuse the silly western culture wars with the grand old tradition of lords weaponizing faith in their pursuit of worldly ambitions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seahawk Posted March 14 Author Share Posted March 14 1 hour ago, Rick said: https://www.foxnews.com/lifestyle/pro-life-father-shares-bold-hopeful-message-i-was-conceived-in-rape-adopted-in-love https://thelifeinstitute.net/learning-centre/abortion-effects/children/conceived-in-rape So you think Ukrainian women should have no abortion after being raped by Russian soldiers? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yama Posted March 14 Share Posted March 14 5 hours ago, Rick said: I cannot deny there are a few "White Christians" who equate this with White Supremacy. However Galatians 3:28 invalidates this view. One has to look to see if this is based on race or culture, for the two are not the same. These individuals do not have a significant role in U.S. culture. I do not know enough of Russia and the Ukraine to comment, and I totally agree with your last paragraph and especially your last sentence. By my observation, most 'White Christian supremacists' are, as Breivik described himself, 'cultural Christians', in that they pick & choose from Christianity whatever suits for their own moral views. They see Christianity as one of the cornerstones what has made White race 'great', so they want to see it retained as a nominal ideological basis, but they themselves often only pay lip service for the faith, at best. If you ask them, Jesus obviously was white, because all the other great people (in their mind) were too. Obnoxious evangelists who thumb their Bible at others exist in all faiths and denominations, and atheists are no exception, of course. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmsaari Posted March 14 Share Posted March 14 1 hour ago, Yama said: If you ask them, Jesus obviously was white, because all the other great people (in their mind) were too. Jesus is usually depicted differently in different cultures so as to have a familiar look: https://twitter.com/ImtiazMadmood/status/1295413225954181121/photo/1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stuart Galbraith Posted March 14 Share Posted March 14 6 minutes ago, jmsaari said: Jesus is usually depicted differently in different cultures so as to have a familiar look: https://twitter.com/ImtiazMadmood/status/1295413225954181121/photo/1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick Posted March 15 Share Posted March 15 12 hours ago, seahawk said: So you think Ukrainian women should have no abortion after being raped by Russian soldiers? Correct. Human evil has been turned into God's glory as witnessed by the men and woman from the sites I gave you to your earlier post. And, in the Bible itself. Genesis 50:20 As for you, you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good in order to bring about this present result, to preserve many people alive. https://hopejoyinchrist.com/embrace-sex-christian-marriage-rape-victim In the Ukraine, there are Christian organizations to help such women, Voice of Martyrs is one. Many people believe that what happened to Joni Eareckson Tada is worse than rape. Yet she is a Christian heroine! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick Posted March 15 Share Posted March 15 8 hours ago, jmsaari said: Jesus is usually depicted differently in different cultures so as to have a familiar look: https://twitter.com/ImtiazMadmood/status/1295413225954181121/photo/1 The Reverend E.V. Hill told of a time he received a death threat from the Black Panthers because they didn't like his preaching about that "white Jesus". This was his reply: "I don't know anything about a white Christ - I know about Christ, a Savior named Jesus. I don't know what color He is. He was born in brown Asia, He fled to black Africa, and He was in heaven before the gospel got to white Europe, so I don't know what color He is. I do know one thing: if you bow at the altar with color on your mind, and get up with color on your mind, go back again - and keep going back until you no longer look at His color, but at His greatness and His power - His power to save!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sardaukar Posted March 15 Share Posted March 15 I always wonder why people bring up Bible when there is war... But... https://biblehub.com/matthew/10-34.htm Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick Posted March 15 Share Posted March 15 11 minutes ago, Sardaukar said: I always wonder why people bring up Bible when there is war... But... https://biblehub.com/matthew/10-34.htm Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. Book of Revelation Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Josh Posted March 15 Share Posted March 15 1 hour ago, Rick said: Book of Revelation Until it happens; your belief system has the same standing as horoscopes. I am curious if you think the rapture is a thing you will see though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Josh Posted March 15 Share Posted March 15 1 hour ago, Rick said: The Reverend E.V. Hill told of a time he received a death threat from the Black Panthers because they didn't like his preaching about that "white Jesus". This was his reply: "I don't know anything about a white Christ - I know about Christ, a Savior named Jesus. I don't know what color He is. He was born in brown Asia, He fled to black Africa, and He was in heaven before the gospel got to white Europe, so I don't know what color He is. I do know one thing: if you bow at the altar with color on your mind, and get up with color on your mind, go back again - and keep going back until you no longer look at His color, but at His greatness and His power - His power to save!" I think it is disingenuous to think most evangelicals think of Jesus as a swarthy mid East Jew. Send me one image of Jesus from a U.S. church that doesn’t depict him as white. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R011 Posted March 15 Share Posted March 15 21 minutes ago, Josh said: I think it is disingenuous to think most evangelicals think of Jesus as a swarthy mid East Jew. Send me one image of Jesus from a U.S. church that doesn’t depict him as white. Google found me a lot of imaages of a Black Jesus by and for African-Americans. Presumably some of those images are in churches. Most Afrcan-American churches seem to hold with evangelical theologies as well. As was noted further up in the thread, there's a tendency to envison Christ as being of the same ethnicity as his wordhippers and He's been traditonally depicted in European culture as being European. I doubt many Chriustians really give His appearance too much thought. All but the most bigotted know he was a Middle Eastern Jew. Rick's an evangelical and he seems to understand this well. You will, of course, find idiots who think Christ must be Nordic, but they're probably also the ones who think the Bible's original language was American. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Josh Posted March 15 Share Posted March 15 (edited) 35 minutes ago, R011 said: Google found me a lot of imaages of a Black Jesus by and for African-Americans. Presumably some of those images are in churches. Most Afrcan-American churches seem to hold with evangelical theologies as well. As was noted further up in the thread, there's a tendency to envison Christ as being of the same ethnicity as his wordhippers and He's been traditonally depicted in European culture as being European. I doubt many Chriustians really give His appearance too much thought. All but the most bigotted know he was a Middle Eastern Jew. Rick's an evangelical and he seems to understand this well. You will, of course, find idiots who think Christ must be Nordic, but they're probably also the ones who think the Bible's original language was American. Fair enough on Black churches, but my personal experience with white churches differs. And more over, from a political point of of view, Fox News gets its panties in a bunch when someone says Santa isn’t white. If Trump or Faux News explicitly say’s Jesus was a relatively olive skinned man and that most depictions of him in the US are false, I retract the statement. EDIT: I feel I should mention I was confirmed in a Congregational church. It isn’t like I haven’t read the source material. My gripe is anyone using it as a justification for anything political: pretty sure Jesus wouldn’t want you to be casting stones. Edited March 15 by Josh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R011 Posted March 15 Share Posted March 15 14 minutes ago, Josh said: Fair enough on Black churches, but my personal experience with white churches differs. And more over, from a political point of of view, Fox News gets its panties in a bunch when someone says Santa isn’t white. If Trump or Faux News explicitly say’s Jesus was a relatively olive skinned man and that most depictions of him in the US are false, I retract the statement. EDIT: I feel I should mention I was confirmed in a Congregational church. It isn’t like I haven’t read the source material. My gripe is anyone using it as a justification for anything political: pretty sure Jesus wouldn’t want you to be casting stones. I rather suspect Fox News carried one or two opinion pieces over overly PC depictions of Christmas mentioning Santa rather than as often as you're implying. I also note that your claimed disdain for religion in politics is part of or has led you to being disdainful of regilious people and their belifs in general. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Angrybk Posted March 15 Share Posted March 15 1 hour ago, Josh said: Fair enough on Black churches, but my personal experience with white churches differs. And more over, from a political point of of view, Fox News gets its panties in a bunch when someone says Santa isn’t white. If Trump or Faux News explicitly say’s Jesus was a relatively olive skinned man and that most depictions of him in the US are false, I retract the statement. EDIT: I feel I should mention I was confirmed in a Congregational church. It isn’t like I haven’t read the source material. My gripe is anyone using it as a justification for anything political: pretty sure Jesus wouldn’t want you to be casting stones. I agree with the vast majority of stuff you post here but I’m not sure why you’re so mad at religion. I know a hell (ha!) of a lot of devout Christians, Jews and Muslims who actually live their beliefs, and those beliefs usually boil down to being a good person. They just don’t brag about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seahawk Posted March 15 Author Share Posted March 15 (edited) 6 hours ago, Rick said: Correct. Human evil has been turned into God's glory as witnessed by the men and woman from the sites I gave you to your earlier post. And, in the Bible itself. Genesis 50:20 As for you, you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good in order to bring about this present result, to preserve many people alive. https://hopejoyinchrist.com/embrace-sex-christian-marriage-rape-victim In the Ukraine, there are Christian organizations to help such women, Voice of Martyrs is one. Many people believe that what happened to Joni Eareckson Tada is worse than rape. Yet she is a Christian heroine! Agreed. And I must say Putin has balls. Finally a global leader speaks the truth and confirms that Germany is still occupied by the US: https://www.hindustantimes.com/world-news/russiaukraine-war-news-vladimir-putin-news-germany-still-occupied-never-fully-sovereign-vladimir-putin-s-bizarre-remark-101678841780724.html Edited March 15 by seahawk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sunday Posted March 15 Share Posted March 15 The real Santa Claus, Saint Nichola of Bari. There are non-white saints. Saint Martin de Porres, for instance. Plus some American Indians. No need to change the race of any saint. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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