armor Examining inverted Telescopic APFSDS and its angled armor effectiveness

[ThatSEPguy]

Inverted, jacketed, telescopic APFSDS not only has a higher penetration than regular APFSDS but it also has a higher angle performance than regular APFSDS. Would this make NATO frontal hull designs obsolete as the required amount of raw thickness would be too high for (most) tanks reasonably achieve?

 

Video of telescopic APFSDS within a simulation

picture of non inverted telescopic APFSDS 

Edited March 8, 2023 by ThatSEPguy
Added Tags for context and preview

[ThatSEPguy]

I’d suggest watching the video as the photo isn’t of inverted telescoping APFSDS. Also a bit of a terminology change would be needed as telescopic APFSDS would need to be jacketed so it would probably be better to call it APFSTPMJDS (Armour Piercing, Fin Stabilized, Telescopic Penetrator, Metal Jacket, Discarding Sabot) its long and wonky but its the most accurate to what it is

[sunday]

There are some interesting comments in the video, on manufacturability of the tungsten tube, and on the consistency of the deployment movement.

[ThatSEPguy]

3 minutes ago, sunday said:

There are some interesting comments in the video, on manufacturability of the tungsten tube, and on the consistency of the deployment movement.

I wonder if the deployment system would actually work in real life since the fins on APFSDS is low drag on the front since it would hurt velocity to have high drag fins, which the telescopic APFSDS in the video uses. I also think the weight imbalance would disturb accuracy of the APFSTPMJDS (I’m calling it that now) since the center of mass would be pushed back to the denser penetrator  

[KV7]

2 hours ago, sunday said:

There are some interesting comments in the video, on manufacturability of the tungsten tube, and on the consistency of the deployment movement.

That comment is a bit confused I think. Tungsten carbide is of course hard to machine, but tungsten alloy as used in APFSDS is not.

[sunday]

1 hour ago, KV7 said:

That comment is a bit confused I think. Tungsten carbide is of course hard to machine, but tungsten alloy as used in APFSDS is not.

Found this supplier of tungsten tubes, they use powder metallurgy.

Edited to add:

Now I wonder how people manufacture tungsten long rod penetrators, as tungsten properties make of it a machinist nightmare: https://mellowpine.com/blog/machining-tungsten/

Perhaps the main process involved is hot forging, Dunno.

Edited March 8, 2023 by sunday

[KV7]

6 hours ago, sunday said:

Found this supplier of tungsten tubes, they use powder metallurgy.

Edited to add:

Now I wonder how people manufacture tungsten long rod penetrators, as tungsten properties make of it a machinist nightmare: https://mellowpine.com/blog/machining-tungsten/

Perhaps the main process involved is hot forging, Dunno.

I was being a bit flippant. Compared to most materials it surely is difficult, but it's a difficulty that is largely surmountable by slower and more costly work processes.

Tungsten rod can be produced to high dimensional accuracy and smoothness by turning and then grinding to give a surface finish treatment.

[Mike1158]

I  am quite out of date but, can these be 3d printed?

[KV7]

On 3/10/2023 at 9:32 AM, Mike1158 said:

I  am quite out of date but, can these be 3d printed?

Tungsten and even tungsten carbide can be 3d printed, but it's an inferior production method to machining for this sort of design.

[Mike1158]

Thanks mate, I suppose a composite process is possible but no real clue tbh.

[KV7]

Yes it is if you want to put some very intricate structure on a simple one that would be ideal.

Tungsten can even be cold worked (at somewhat below 1200 c) which actually improves toughness and ductility, pushing the brittle to ductile transition down to room temperature. This also improves workability.

https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10853-020-04801-5

[sunday]

Intriguing. https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0263436823000252

[KV7]

On 3/12/2023 at 1:39 AM, sunday said:

Intriguing. https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0263436823000252

Nice find. There is a bit of a research effort for that application, i.e. walls of fusion reactors.

[sunday]

The question is - Could those ultra fine grain alloys be used to manufacture APFSDS penetrators? I understand penetrators need to be made of a ductile alloy in order to not shatter, if shattering is a problem, of course.

Edited March 12, 2023 by sunday