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Nordstream Is Burning


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35 minutes ago, Yama said:

Went to grocery hour ago, and saw several. They're not so rare B)

Years since I saw my hrandfather, he was a proper Dinosaur though.  😲

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2 hours ago, crazyinsane105 said:

 

Given that Ukraine has been in the middle of a large war, getting half a ton of explosives from there will be more than plausible. How many people in Ukraine and other countries knew about it…that’s the million dollar question 

Ukraine is not blowing up a German pipeline without US and German permission.  So, all that has happened is that even the US is now admitting Russia didn't do it.

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5 minutes ago, Josh said:

The sausage king of Chicago?

From a (paywalled) "Times" report. "Chocolate king" refers to Petro Poroshenko, who owned chocolate maker Roshen before becoming president of Ukraine in 2014.

Meanwhile the local media swarm is out to pick the leftovers of the alleged ARD/"Zeit" scoop clean. Conservative daily "Die Welt" had a diving expert explain that between computer-controlled mixed-gas rebreathers, dive computers to handle decompression times, fishfinder sonars capable of 3D bottom plotting and seascooters all commercially available for four- to low five-digit (and training on them for three-digit) Euro sums, you don't need to be an elite military diver to pull something like this off today. The critical bit might be that you still want to have a decompression chamber for emergencies, which may be hard to stow on a small yacht.

OTOH, "Spiegel" notes a local from the little port of Wieck on the Darß peninsula where the vessel reportedly stopped over wondered why anyone would sail an explosives-ladden boat through their shallow lagoon where more than one skipper has run aground and had to be pulled free by authorities, under a bridge only open to pass under at certain times, just to anchor directly under a webcam, pay the port fees, then sail the same way back and around the adjacent natural reserve. The magazine has dispatched several reporters to beachcomb the coast for such details.

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1 hour ago, Josh said:

I suppose once you crossed the Polish border, you'd be home free. You wouldn't even need to cross another border to get to the Baltic. No idea what the current state of affairs is regarding crossings; I assume there are checkpoints.

The Polish authorities are definitely checking, and there hasn’t been any report of weapons from Ukraine entering into the EU (yet). But quite frankly, Polish intel could have easily given a wink and nod and let a few vans full of explosives through. 
 

All this is just a pure guess. I have no idea how great Polish checks are at the Ukrainian border, maybe this was done without them knowing. Even moving a few dozen pounds of explosives in large trucks filled with other materials is more than possible (which is how majority of drugs enter into the US from Mexico). 
 

But the explosives had to be sourced from Ukraine. I honestly don’t know any other country that would hand over dozens of kilos of explosives over to a rogue group to blow up a pipeline. 

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54 minutes ago, glenn239 said:

Ukraine is not blowing up a German pipeline without US and German permission.  So, all that has happened is that even the US is now admitting Russia didn't do it.

Without German permission - you bet. Without US - no.

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1 hour ago, BansheeOne said:

 

Meanwhile the local media swarm is out to pick the leftovers of the alleged ARD/"Zeit" scoop clean. Conservative daily "Die Welt" had a diving expert explain that between computer-controlled mixed-gas rebreathers, dive computers to handle decompression times, fishfinder sonars capable of 3D bottom plotting and seascooters all commercially available for four- to low five-digit (and training on them for three-digit) Euro sums, you don't need to be an elite military diver to pull something like this off today. The critical bit might be that you still want to have a decompression chamber for emergencies, which may be hard to stow on a small yacht.

 

just saw in evening news a interview with local diving company owner, who said that there was no need for a diver for such job, location is public knowledge anyway. german overengineering strikes again? 🙂

 

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11 minutes ago, bd1 said:

just saw in evening news a interview with local diving company owner, who said that there was no need for a diver for such job, location is public knowledge anyway. german overengineering strikes again? 🙂

 

Perhaps they could just use some remote controlled "diving drone" to plant explosives.

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On 3/7/2023 at 7:54 AM, crazyinsane105 said:

 

WASHINGTON — New intelligence reviewed by U.S. officials suggests that a pro-Ukrainian group carried out the attack on the Nord Stream pipelines last year, a step toward determining responsibility for an act of sabotage that has confounded investigators on both sides of the Atlantic for months.

U.S. officials said that they had no evidence President Volodymyr Zelensky of Ukraine or his top lieutenants were involved in the operation, or that the perpetrators were acting at the direction of any Ukrainian government officials.

The brazen attack on the natural gas pipelines, which link Russia to Western Europe, fueled public speculation about who was to blame, from Moscow to Kyiv and London to Washington, and it has remained one of the most consequential unsolved mysteries of Russia’s year-old war in Ukraine
 

Ukraine and its allies have been seen by some officials as having the most logical potential motive to attack the pipelines. They have opposed the project for years, calling it a national security threat because it would allow Russia to sell gas more easily to Europe. Ukrainian government and military intelligence officials say they had no role in the attack and do not know who carried it out

U.S. officials said there was much they did not know about the perpetrators and their affiliations. The review of newly collected intelligence suggests they were opponents of President Vladimir V. Putin of Russia, but does not specify the members of the group, or who directed or paid for the operation. U.S. officials declined to disclose the nature of the intelligence, how it was obtained or any details of the strength of the evidence it contains. They have said that there are no firm conclusions about it, leaving open the possibility that the operation might have been conducted off the books by a proxy force with connections to the Ukrainian government or its security services.

Some initial U.S. and European speculation centered on possible Russian culpability, especially given its prowess in undersea operations, though it is unclear what motivation the Kremlin would have in sabotaging the pipelines given that they have been an important source of revenue and a means for Moscow to exert influence over Europe. One estimate put the cost of repairing the pipelines starting at about $500 million. U.S. officials say they have not found any evidence of involvement by the Russian government in the attack.

Officials who have reviewed the intelligence said they believed the saboteurs were most likely Ukrainian or Russian nationals, or some combination of the two. U.S. officials said no American or British nationals were involved.

The pipelines were ripped apart by deep sea explosions in September, in what U.S. officials described at the time as an act of sabotage. European officials have publicly said they believe the operation that targeted Nord Stream was probably state sponsored, possibly because of the sophistication with which the perpetrators planted and detonated the explosives on the floor of the Baltic Sea without being detected. U.S. officials have not stated publicly that they believe the operation was sponsored by a state.

The explosives were most likely planted with the help of experienced divers who did not appear to be working for military or intelligence services, U.S. officials who have reviewed the new intelligence said. But it is possible that the perpetrators received specialized government training in the past.

Officials said there were still enormous gaps in what U.S. spy agencies and their European partners knew about what transpired. But officials said it might constitute the first significant lead to emerge from several closely guarded investigations, the conclusions of which could have profound implications for the coalition supporting Ukraine.

Any suggestion of Ukrainian involvement, whether direct or indirect, could upset the delicate relationship between Ukraine and Germany, souring support among a German public that has swallowed high energy prices in the name of solidarity.

U.S. officials who have been briefed on the intelligence are divided about how much weight to put on the new information. All of them spoke on condition of anonymity to discuss classified intelligence and matters of sensitive diplomacy.

I notice they don't state what officials or even their Department/position are that are saying this

 https://www.nytimes.com/2023/03/07/us/politics/nord-stream-pipeline-sabotage-ukraine.html

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14 hours ago, Stuart Galbraith said:

Yeah, I too heard the yacht claim. And isnt it curious  they are ONLY just discovering there was a yacht in the area, months after it happened.

 

Ive a book on the shelf upstairs that covered the background of rendition, and how the CIA's covert air plan collapsed. Do you know who found out? Aircraft Nerds. They were trawling the data that flightradar 24 and other similar pages used, and noticed lots of strange callsigns, many of them of long defunct airlines. So they traced one location that some of them seemed to be operating out of in the Arizona desert and found heavy security. And slowly going through that data, it pinpointed not just where they were coming from, but where they were going to, the black sites throughout the world.

Ive not nearly as often delved into the data of ship traffic, but Ive noticed before on the few occasions I have how extensive it is. So we have to believe that not only did nobody go and trawl through the data of the day in question seveal months back and not notice a ship stationary over the pipeline (and this includes Russia, whom seem to have had an exhaustive list that dropped to credit Hersh's story), but also NATO, which seems to have been in the middle of an exercise in the same sea at the time? None of them notices a small vessel sat stationary over the pipeline the day the thing blew up?

 Ill keep an open mind. But short of them finding the crew and them fessing up that it was a fair cop, Im just going to credit this as just yet more Russian disinformation effort, to try and drive a wedge between Germany and Ukraine.

 

 

Sorry to say that but I believe you have read too much Clancy and no experience how life and service on a modern warship and at sea actually look like.

There is a ton of traffic at sea every day: merchant vessels, fishermen, yachts etc., especially near coasts. On a warship in a somewhat larger exercise the ops guys in the CIC will take care of the tactical and operational situation and run their procedures which is actually a constantly high workload while the bridge team takes care of navigational safety and holding the station in the formation/task group or unit which is also a high stress situation if you have lots of contacts like in the Baltic Sea. A contact like a yacht or fisherman is only interesting until identified as not belonging to the exercise or if it looks like it is becoming a hazard for navigational safety. If the ship has TACON of some air asset or own helicopters the aircrew might identify that vessel and will then also stop caring. Absolutely no one in the CIC or on the bridge will care for the personal intentions of the crew of such a contact. And the rest of the ship‘s crew is busy actually running the technical and logistical aspects of the ship and does not even have the means to get an impression of the tactical situation except for when the bridge or CIC makes a PA announcement. 
 

And if that was one of the NATO mine hunting exercises, they actually hunt and blow up actual remaining WW2 mines and dumped ammunition in those. They will be even more stressed and will even care less than the guys on just tactical exercises.

Edited by kokovi
Mine hunting added
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3 hours ago, Colin said:

I notice they don't state what officials or even their Department/position are that are saying this

 https://www.nytimes.com/2023/03/07/us/politics/nord-stream-pipeline-sabotage-ukraine.html

To be fair, quite a bit of intel that is passed onto media comes in this form. Sometimes we are able to determine specifically who said what, all the way to 'so and so within some department is leaning towards this conclusion.' 

I have a feeling the US doesn't want to make any official announcement regarding this as it will be a huge propaganda win for Russia. 

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10 hours ago, kokovi said:

Sorry to say that but I believe you have read too much Clancy and no experience how life and service on a modern warship and at sea actually look like.

There is a ton of traffic at sea every day: merchant vessels, fishermen, yachts etc., especially near coasts. On a warship in a somewhat larger exercise the ops guys in the CIC will take care of the tactical and operational situation and run their procedures which is actually a constantly high workload while the bridge team takes care of navigational safety and holding the station in the formation/task group or unit which is also a high stress situation if you have lots of contacts like in the Baltic Sea. A contact like a yacht or fisherman is only interesting until identified as not belonging to the exercise or if it looks like it is becoming a hazard for navigational safety. If the ship has TACON of some air asset or own helicopters the aircrew might identify that vessel and will then also stop caring. Absolutely no one in the CIC or on the bridge will care for the personal intentions of the crew of such a contact. And the rest of the ship‘s crew is busy actually running the technical and logistical aspects of the ship and does not even have the means to get an impression of the tactical situation except for when the bridge or CIC makes a PA announcement. 
 

And if that was one of the NATO mine hunting exercises, they actually hunt and blow up actual remaining WW2 mines and dumped ammunition in those. They will be even more stressed and will even care less than the guys on just tactical exercises.

Yes, and with the utmost respect, I think you are disagreeing with a post I didnt make. I wasnt talking about a CIC, I was talking about harnessing of data far away from the sea, at places like the NSA. We know they have the data, the story even says so. Im suggesting if they cannot identify a ship that sat near the pipe for several hours, then that points to the charge being laid via a submersible.

 

 

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13 hours ago, MiGG0 said:

Perhaps they could just use some remote controlled "diving drone" to plant explosives.

Which would require a fairly hefty drone, with some considerable distance of capable, to not identify the ship laying the charges. And that isnt the allegation that has been made. Its unlikely the Ukrainians could just go out and hire such capabilities.

Course it could be just a small drone with a camera that has been packed with explosives. But if it was, I think they would have found some fragments by now, even a chunk of cable.

If it was done that way, it would be reuseable.

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9 hours ago, crazyinsane105 said:

I have a feeling the US doesn't want to make any official announcement regarding this as it will be a huge propaganda win for Russia. 

Again judging from the current Russian reactions, it's not the propaganda win they wanted though.

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41 minutes ago, BansheeOne said:

Again judging from the current Russian reactions, it's not the propaganda win they wanted though.

Yep, story of small group of Ukrainian operators, possibly not even endorsed by Kiev government, is way too tepid. They want CIA operation, Pentagon involvement, Biden personally screwing the detonators in place while cackling the Star Wars Emperor laugh...

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Only one nation wins from this fales flag operation,  Russia amd it's puppet master.  Finding an obscure group that supports Ukraine perhaps and convincing hotheads they are doing good for Ukraine is simple and there have been many incidents through time.  Belorussian involvement kighly likelym I dioubt the supposed boss man will ever say no to Vlad Putin.

Until someone comes round to reduce his height a bit anyway.

As for Vlad Putin and his crowd, sooner they get a stake the better off we will all be and I include Russians in that.

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1 hour ago, Yama said:

Yep, story of small group of Ukrainian operators, possibly not even endorsed by Kiev government, is way too tepid. They want CIA operation, Pentagon involvement, Biden personally screwing the detonators in place while cackling the Star Wars Emperor laugh...

I heard it was Hillary Clinton's Yacht. Just saying...

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Withholding the truth (if that's what it is) until someone overplayed their hand in the propaganda game makes entirely sense then. Just three months ago, there would have been wild public outrage here that it was possibly some Ukrainians after all the support we had already given them, the price hikes and economic repercussions we were suffering on their behalf - and then they had the temerity to demand MBTs, too. Now though the local hardcore pro-Russian camp is actually busy defending them from American blameshifting, and to everyone else it doesn't look so bad compared to the thought it was our own NATO allies. It's brilliant to the point where I come back to the idea that Hersh was fed the nonsense he published for this exact purpose. 😁

There's one point in the conspiracy theories that I actually tend to believe - that the release was agreed at Olaf Scholz's strange short visit to Biden last week. Even regular observers were puzzled that he would fly across the Atlantic and back with no media entourage or industry delegation in tow, just for one hour of talks at the White House with not even a joint press conference afterwards (well, he did give an interview to CNN, too). Clearly there was something that was thought could only be talked about face to face.

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3 hours ago, BansheeOne said:

Withholding the truth (if that's what it is) until someone overplayed their hand in the propaganda game makes entirely sense then. Just three months ago, there would have been wild public outrage here that it was possibly some Ukrainians after all the support we had already given them

That implies that much of anyone believes the Ukrainians did it.  The only meaningful information conveyed in the new theory is that the Americans are admitting Russia did  not do it.  

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7 hours ago, BansheeOne said:

Withholding the truth (if that's what it is) until someone overplayed their hand in the propaganda game makes entirely sense then. Just three months ago, there would have been wild public outrage here that it was possibly some Ukrainians after all the support we had already given them, the price hikes and economic repercussions we were suffering on their behalf - and then they had the temerity to demand MBTs, too. Now though the local hardcore pro-Russian camp is actually busy defending them from American blameshifting, and to everyone else it doesn't look so bad compared to the thought it was our own NATO allies. It's brilliant to the point where I come back to the idea that Hersh was fed the nonsense he published for this exact purpose. 😁

I am affraid you got motives of "pro-Russian camp" wrong: i have not seen anybody "busy defending them (pro-Ukrainians you probably mean) from American blameshifting". The idea is just pointing out that blameshifting is blameshifting. By the way your use of the world "blameshifting" is interesing, since responcibility for good deed is usually not described as "blame" - and a lot of This Great Forum members insists blowing up NS was good deed. So the very fact that US&Co decided to deny responcibility for that good deed and give the merits of it to pro-Ukrainians might be inteersting. I think Germans are happy they have now dropped the burdeon of dependence on Russian NG and will one day issue awards to this brave divers who have helped them to get rid of this pipelines....

7 hours ago, BansheeOne said:

There's one point in the conspiracy theories that I actually tend to believe - that the release was agreed at Olaf Scholz's strange short visit to Biden last week. Even regular observers were puzzled that he would fly across the Atlantic and back with no media entourage or industry delegation in tow, just for one hour of talks at the White House with not even a joint press conference afterwards (well, he did give an interview to CNN, too). Clearly there was something that was thought could only be talked about face to face.

As for me, the most telling part of this trip was the fact of this trip itself. I am far from believing that USA officials are unable to provide secure communication line between US President and German leader, so why not communicating by phone or (if "face to face" is critical) via videolink. Reportedly Olaf Scholz was speaking to US President without advisors/officials present (and possibly even without translator) - as for me, it is indication that prime concern of US side is potential leak of information throigh German officials. Isn't it too much precaution to agree release of information that is obviously fake and will be in any newspaper week later anyway? (I do not think Scholz got "No" option in his list of possible answers).  May be they were informing him of something way more important.

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