Josh Posted August 22 Share Posted August 22 1 hour ago, glenn239 said: The Russian army of today would mop the floor with the Russian army of Jan 31st 2022, so no, the Russian peak strength is now, not then. Well the Ukrainian army of today seems quite able to retain more of its area than the Ukrainian army of Feb 22, and now also can take some of Russia. So better off seems quite relative, even if one subscribed to your stronger than ever narrative. Meanwhile reserve ammunition and vehicles are being exhausted, the VKS is using up its flight hours (and a not insignificant number of Su-34s and AEW aircraft), the Black Sea fleet practically does not exist, and the Russian government is shelling out a vast amount of its financial resources to pay for it all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roman Alymov Posted August 22 Share Posted August 22 16 minutes ago, Josh said: Well the Ukrainian army of today seems quite able to retain more of its area than the Ukrainian army of Feb 22, and now also can take some of Russia. So better off seems quite relative, even if one subscribed to your stronger than ever narrative. Meanwhile reserve ammunition and vehicles are being exhausted, the VKS is using up its flight hours (and a not insignificant number of Su-34s and AEW aircraft), the Black Sea fleet practically does not exist, and the Russian government is shelling out a vast amount of its financial resources to pay for it all. "Black Sea fleet practically does not exist" - since when? Correct formula would be "Black Sea fleet practically does not act as fleet, idling in harbors instead" - but it is result of political decisions (since there is no aims for Fleet as long as they are not allowed to sunk enemy shipping) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Josh Posted August 22 Share Posted August 22 42 minutes ago, Roman Alymov said: "Black Sea fleet practically does not exist" - since when? Correct formula would be "Black Sea fleet practically does not act as fleet, idling in harbors instead" - but it is result of political decisions (since there is no aims for Fleet as long as they are not allowed to sunk enemy shipping) I stand corrected. It has suffered dozens of ship casualties and is functionally useless, but still exists as an organization and collection of surviving ships. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roman Alymov Posted August 22 Share Posted August 22 2 hours ago, Josh said: I stand corrected. It has suffered dozens of ship casualties and is functionally useless, but still exists as an organization and collection of surviving ships. Was it functionally useful before that? This ships were lost because they were sitting ducks in the bases or near them, in clear view of enemy recon assets (that can't be shot down because "we are not Iran"). How many enemy cargo ships were intercepted by Black Sea Fleet even before single ship was lost? None, as far as i remember -while there is even no need to have "real" ships for that in Black Sea conditions, simple converted speedboats with couple MGs are enough. How many enemy ships sunken? None (except kills by aviation), while there is even no need to leave port for that - anti-ship missiles from shore could do that. But anti-ship missiles (expensive toys) were routinely fired on barn on enemy shore, not even enemy ports. And so on. As i have said many times, the best use of Black Sea Fleet ships is to sell/donate them to Iran - since, unlike Russian elite, Persian bosses do not have palaces in London and are not affraid to allow their men to fire at enemy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Josh Posted August 22 Share Posted August 22 I stand corrected again: it continues to be functionally useless with 1/3 less ships pre war while being home based at a different port. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roman Alymov Posted August 22 Share Posted August 22 1 minute ago, Josh said: I stand corrected again: it continues to be functionally useless with 1/3 less ships pre war while being home based at a different port. With current practice, it is only question of time all Black Sea Fleet ships will be lost (as no AD could shot down 100% of missiles, so if adversary have unlimited time - sooner or later all targets will be hit). That is why i said it is far better to donate them to Iran. Or NK, for example. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Josh Posted August 22 Share Posted August 22 I doubt Turkey lets that happen until the war is over. And I’m not sure either country wants them. Isn’t there an internal canal system that connects to the Caspian? The landing ships could not go that route but the corvettes might. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roman Alymov Posted August 22 Share Posted August 22 (edited) 21 minutes ago, Josh said: I doubt Turkey lets that happen until the war is over. And I’m not sure either country wants them. Isn’t there an internal canal system that connects to the Caspian? The landing ships could not go that route but the corvettes might. Yes it is the system that could take useful ships to Caspian sea, but it is way more usefull to transport them to Baltics and then Iranians could take them to ocean (but i am not sure they need entire hulls - may be only equipment from them would be enough). Landing ships are all relics of Cold War, built in Soviet Poland, so no need to bother with them - easyer to convert old cheap civilian ships into one-way landing ship.... http://ic.pics.livejournal.com/bmpd/38024980/658521/658521_original.jpg Edited August 22 by Roman Alymov Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Josh Posted August 22 Share Posted August 22 I think the internal canal system connects not just to the Baltics but also Murmansk? If the the ship has a shallow draft. I read up on the internal canal systems of the USSR/Russia and they were amazingly thoughtful and connected most of the waterways, if the ship was shallow draft enough to go through the lock system. But it seems like you could easily transit from Murmansk to the Baltic to the Black Sea to the Caspian, if you had sufficiently low draft and beam. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glenn239 Posted August 23 Share Posted August 23 6 hours ago, Josh said: Well the Ukrainian army of today seems quite able to retain more of its area than the Ukrainian army of Feb 22, and now also can take some of Russia. So better off seems quite relative, even if one subscribed to your stronger than ever narrative. As stated, the Russian army of August 2024 could wipe the floor with the Russian army of January 2022. So that begs the question. If in comparison to 2022 the Russian military in 2024 is stronger, the Russian military production is stronger, the Russian economy is stronger, the Russian geopolitical standing is stronger, and the Russian domestic unity is stronger, upon what possible basis did you and Ink pull out of your asses the claim that Russia was stronger in 2022? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glenn239 Posted August 23 Share Posted August 23 2 hours ago, Roman Alymov said: With current practice, it is only question of time all Black Sea Fleet ships will be lost (as no AD could shot down 100% of missiles, so if adversary have unlimited time - sooner or later all targets will be hit). That is why i said it is far better to donate them to Iran. Or NK, for example. If Biden's intention was to convince Moscow that in the future the Russian navy construction should be nuclear attack submarines and hunting UUV's, then mission accomplished. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Josh Posted August 23 Share Posted August 23 (edited) 42 minutes ago, glenn239 said: As stated, the Russian army of August 2024 could wipe the floor with the Russian army of January 2022. So that begs the question. If in comparison to 2022 the Russian military in 2024 is stronger, the Russian military production is stronger, the Russian economy is stronger, the Russian geopolitical standing is stronger, and the Russian domestic unity is stronger, upon what possible basis did you and Ink pull out of your asses the claim that Russia was stronger in 2022? This assumes Russia doesn’t have it’s hands full and that NATO is holding still. it also assures this economic situation favors them in the long term. Edited August 23 by Josh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glenn239 Posted August 23 Share Posted August 23 12 hours ago, Josh said: This assumes Russia doesn’t have it’s hands full and that NATO is holding still. it also assures this economic situation favors them in the long term. You're moving the goal posts. You and Ink stated that Russia in 2022 was stronger than Russia in Aug 2024. Now you're suggesting that Russia in 2022 might be stronger than Russia in 2034. Or 2044. Or, pick a year between now and the 2nd Coming of Christ. Dunno about that. All I can say is that by any objective measure of Russian state power, they're stronger. Thanks to Joe Biden. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roman Alymov Posted August 23 Share Posted August 23 29 minutes ago, glenn239 said: You're moving the goal posts. You and Ink stated that Russia in 2022 was stronger than Russia in Aug 2024. Now you're suggesting that Russia in 2022 might be stronger than Russia in 2034. Or 2044. Or, pick a year between now and the 2nd Coming of Christ. Dunno about that. All I can say is that by any objective measure of Russian state power, they're stronger. Thanks to Joe Biden. No idea how it could be debated without defining what is "strong/stronger". Who cares how many tanks Russian Army have, when our Foreign Minister is US citizen (and it was real situation in early 1990th). The same now: when comparing number of tanks in 2022 and in 2024, when at least 6 deputy Prime Ministers who have fled abroad are not included in calculation? Some things are more important then tanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seahawk Posted August 23 Share Posted August 23 16 hours ago, Roman Alymov said: As i have said many times, the best use of Black Sea Fleet ships is to sell/donate them to Iran - since, unlike Russian elite, Persian bosses do not have palaces in London and are not affraid to allow their men to fire at enemy. You sure about this? https://www.reuters.com/investigates/iran/#article/part1 https://www.rferl.org/a/iran-wealthy-leaks-property-dubai-unlocked/32951628.html https://www.iranintl.com/en/202210306163 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roman Alymov Posted August 24 Share Posted August 24 23 hours ago, seahawk said: You sure about this? https://www.reuters.com/investigates/iran/#article/part1 https://www.rferl.org/a/iran-wealthy-leaks-property-dubai-unlocked/32951628.html https://www.iranintl.com/en/202210306163 This articles says nothing contrary - yes no doubt there are a lot of people in Iran doing some shady deals, but they are unable to influence political decisions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now