A Peace Settlement to the Ukraine War

[Roman Alymov]

3 minutes ago, BansheeOne said:

Spoken like a true Ukrainian. 😋👍

My Grandmother is from Poltava region (as well as my wife's father by the way), my Grandfather met her in Dnepropetrovsk ( aka Ekaterinoslav), both my grandfathers fought on 1st Ukrainian front. So yes, i got quite enouth prepositions to be more "Ukrainian" than Saakashvilli (who is ethnic Georgian from Georgia) or Avakov (ethnic Armenian from Baku). The same is true for most of Russians - situation of one brother/sister pretending to be "Ukrainian" while others are Russian is quite common.

[BansheeOne]

Well, in light of all the Germans who went to Russia, settled there for a couple centuries and then often went back after 1991, that makes for a great idea for a peace settlement: Germany takes over the entire Black Sea coast, so Russia and Ukraine don't have to fight over it. Everyone will be happy I'm sure! 😃

[seahawk]

Nice that you admit that Germany is delivering Leopards to fulfil revanchist dreams of defeating Russia and stealing Russian land after being defeated in WW2 and after Russia saved the World from German fascism.

[Stuart Galbraith]

I vaguely recall the Western Allies had a little something to do with that, or at least prior to the New Ingsoc History book anyway.

 

[Stuart Galbraith]

32 minutes ago, BansheeOne said:

Well, in light of all the Germans who went to Russia, settled there for a couple centuries and then often went back after 1991, that makes for a great idea for a peace settlement: Germany takes over the entire Black Sea coast, so Russia and Ukraine don't have to fight over it. Everyone will be happy I'm sure! 😃

I thought all those peksy Teutons drowned in Eisenstein's lake?

 

[seahawk]

38 minutes ago, Stuart Galbraith said:

I vaguely recall the Western Allies had a little something to do with that, or at least prior to the New Ingsoc History book anyway.

 

Well it was the Soviet Union alone that won the Great Patriotic war.

[Stuart Galbraith]

1 minute ago, seahawk said:

Well it was the Soviet Union alone that won the Great Patriotic war.

Double plus ungood Seahawk. The Soviet Union can claim to have buggered up one of Germany's armed forces, namely the Wehrmacht. That is beyond dispute (even though the Western allies bagged as many troops in North Africa as the USSR bagged in Stalingrad. But lets gloss over that).

Pointedly there were two other forces, namely the Kriegsmarine and the Luftwaffe, and they played little to no role in defeating those. How many Soviet bombers do you think ended up over Berlin before the last months of the war? How many U Boats do you think the Soviet Navy sank?

The Soviet Union paid the majority of the butchers price for defeating Nazi Germany, again beyond disputed. But that is, for a considerable amount of the time, because they werent actually very good at fighting them.. With all those condemed Soviet marshalls allowed to live, Ive little doubt things would have been very different. But then I guess Stalin must have knew what he was doing, right?

[Yama]

"Great Patriotic War" technically refers to Eastern Front 1941-45, not the entire conflict  Similarly, US won the "Pacific War", but it wasn't the only contributor, China was the most notable of others, yet often overlooked. Few wars take place in complete isolation.

[Roman Alymov]

1 hour ago, BansheeOne said:

Well, in light of all the Germans who went to Russia, settled there for a couple centuries and then often went back after 1991, that makes for a great idea for a peace settlement: Germany takes over the entire Black Sea coast, so Russia and Ukraine don't have to fight over it. Everyone will be happy I'm sure! 😃

Well, it works both ways: friend of mine (who is ethnic German, from family deported in Kazakhstan during WWII from N.Causacus) told me once "german Germans" were surprised by how clean and old-fashioned German language spoken by "Rusaks" is. So given few more waves of migration and LGBTXYZ++, Russia might become the "natural reserve" of original Germans....

[Stefan Kotsch]

Standing still in the past and preventing further development is never good for a people.

Russia is a good example.  Even the Chinese are smarter.

 

[Roman Alymov]

5 minutes ago, Stefan Kotsch said:

Standing still in the past and preventing further development is never good for a people.

Russia is a good example.  Even the Chinese are smarter.

Standing on the edge of a kliff is nice position to make step forward...   I think we should politely give a way for  Europeans to go this path first, and see results.

[Stefan Kotsch]

@Roman Alymov The old Marxist dream of the demise of capitalism?

[mandeb48]

2 hours ago, Yama said:

What 'living memory'? USSR was not Russia, it was commonwealth of nations, whom could leave if they desired, and in the end, they did.

I think there was a referendum where people think differently....

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1991_Soviet_Union_referendum

 

And few month later:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1991_Ukrainian_independence_referendum

Not that it matters much what ordinary people want, but hey....

Edited July 28, 2023 by mandeb48

[Mike1158]

37 minutes ago, Roman Alymov said:

Standing on the edge of a kliff is nice position to make step forward...   I think we should politely give a way for  Europeans to go this path first, and see results.

Quite clearly, mother Russia is in the process of falling off said cliff.  Who will hit the rocks first Putin and his 'ista's or mother Russia?

[Mike1158]

2 hours ago, Yama said:

What 'living memory'? USSR was not Russia, it was commonwealth of nations, whom could leave if they desired, and in the end, they did.

 

A massive simplification. Well educated people tended to do well and gain power, and educated people were more common in Western parts of Russia, than central, much less East or South. As for the Imperial family, by 19th century nearly all European dynasties were ethnically 100% German, so Russia was hardly unique.

They only left because Russia shut up the soviet union chop shop and told them to sod offski.  Russia was in no position do involve itself in their politics at the time and sat in the corner with it's fingers in it's ears saying "Can't hear you, lalalalalalalalalalalalala".

 

That they are now demanding everyone bow to their wants is pretty pathetic.

[urbanoid]

54 minutes ago, mandeb48 said:

I think there was a referendum where people think differently....

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1991_Soviet_Union_referendum

 

And few month later:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1991_Ukrainian_independence_referendum

Not that it matters much what ordinary people want, but hey....

So....

In March 1991 78% of Soviet citizens, including 71% of residents of Ukrainian SSR voted to preserve the USSR.

In December 1991 92% of Ukrainians supported the Ukrainian independence with a majority in every region, including Crimea (barely, but still a majority).

[Stuart Galbraith]

And what came between the two? The August coup, which is neatly being glossed over.

[urbanoid]

Ah, details, details.

[seahawk]

2 hours ago, Stuart Galbraith said:

Double plus ungood Seahawk. The Soviet Union can claim to have buggered up one of Germany's armed forces, namely the Wehrmacht. That is beyond dispute (even though the Western allies bagged as many troops in North Africa as the USSR bagged in Stalingrad. But lets gloss over that).

Pointedly there were two other forces, namely the Kriegsmarine and the Luftwaffe, and they played little to no role in defeating those. How many Soviet bombers do you think ended up over Berlin before the last months of the war? How many U Boats do you think the Soviet Navy sank?

The Soviet Union paid the majority of the butchers price for defeating Nazi Germany, again beyond disputed. But that is, for a considerable amount of the time, because they werent actually very good at fighting them.. With all those condemed Soviet marshalls allowed to live, Ive little doubt things would have been very different. But then I guess Stalin must have knew what he was doing, right?

Again, read carefully, or at least try to understand how Russia works. On the 9th of May the celebrate victory day of the Great Patriotic war. There is a reason why VE day is on the 8th May. 

[urbanoid]

2 minutes ago, seahawk said:

Again, read carefully, or at least try to understand how Russia works. On the 9th of May the celebrate victory day of the Great Patriotic war. There is a reason why VE day is on the 8th May. 

Of course to underline the fact that the Western Allies won a completely different war than the Soviet Union. And while the Soviet Union didn't get any help from the Western Allies, the Western Allies would have never won their war without Soviet help, so the wars were at the same time separate and non-separate. Did I get it right?

[Stuart Galbraith]

25 minutes ago, seahawk said:

Again, read carefully, or at least try to understand how Russia works. On the 9th of May the celebrate victory day of the Great Patriotic war. There is a reason why VE day is on the 8th May. 

Because Stalin decided not to hold it on May 8th like everyone else.

Im perfectly willing to understand the Russian position, were the one offered not wholly nonsensical, and to a very large extent, based on very old lies indeed.

[seahawk]

52 minutes ago, urbanoid said:

Of course to underline the fact that the Western Allies won a completely different war than the Soviet Union. And while the Soviet Union didn't get any help from the Western Allies, the Western Allies would have never won their war without Soviet help, so the wars were at the same time separate and non-separate. Did I get it right?

Yes. At least that it is what most people raised in the Soviet Union learned. Or has anybody ever seen a Soviet / Russian position on the Molotov–Ribbentrop Pact or one that discussed the role of the Soviet Union in the remilitarisation of Germany.

[futon]

3 hours ago, Yama said:

"Great Patriotic War" technically refers to Eastern Front 1941-45, not the entire conflict  Similarly, US won the "Pacific War", but it wasn't the only contributor, China was the most notable of others, yet often overlooked. Few wars take place in complete isolation.

There were three "China"s. The Nationalists, the Communists, and the Wang Regime. The Wang Regime was still similar to Nationalists in ideology and would resume the title of "Nationalists China" and the same flag had CKS's Nationalists been defeated. I've come to the conclusion that CKS's Nationalists in Chongchinq would have full lost by 1940 if US lines of credit and growing assurances were factored out. So if the Nationalists capitulated and merged back with the Wang Regime, then there would have been nothing to contribute to. All this is not considered. Which is probably a reason why it gets overlooked. It's not the same positive victory like in Western Europe. It's kind of hard to imagine a Wang Regime based Nationalists Chinese to turn out being worse (at least as har as the human condition goes from a 3rd person perspective) than what has actually happened on the Asia mianland.. rise of Mao's CCP, a cut in half Korea, and Tibet may have been more likely to keep they brief but desired own independent country. In this Asia context, "contributor" doesn't mean a net positive gain but more of a contributor to a lateral which is not hard to fancy it actually being worse than had the Nationalists in Chongqing lost in 1940 and without the whole subsequent Pacific War which the share of cause is roughly 50/50 between the US and Japan. There's no other way to see it after plainly accepting it as it is.

Maybe that's a reason why it's overlooked.

Another reason is likely because there were no major high-end tank vs tank battles or other eye drawing high-end war materials involved along with very likely quite a fair amount less preserved records for a close in-depth look at things that happened in comparison with the war in Europe. But from what little that can be found on it, the offenses in 1938 towards Wuhan or the defense at Changsha are still interesting, bloodbaths at any rate.

[futon]

1 hour ago, urbanoid said:

Ah, details, details.

What's your view about some of the details related to Wang Jingwei and how it relates to the cause and result of the Pacific War.

[futon]

48 minutes ago, Stuart Galbraith said:

Because Stalin decided not to hold it on May 8th like everyone else.

Im perfectly willing to understand the Russian position, were the one offered not wholly nonsensical, and to a very large extent, based on very old lies indeed.

Japan being at full fault and cause of the Pacific War is an old lie that some still cling onto as well.