Because, Israel

[Strannik]

5 hours ago, Mighty_Zuk said:

They are allowed to create communities everywhere without disturbance, have the means to convert existing communities into their own, and their welfare is funded by various programs funded by the middle and upper classes, while they are exempt from taxes such as social security and healthcare. This is effectively mini-communism.

They want everyone to either be like them or subject to them, and they want to be funded by others without being productive themselves. 

The Likud is also deeply tied with socialist organizations like the national trade union and endorses

That's supporting special interest, nothing "communist" about it.  Saudis subsidize clerics too

As far as "ties with union" - so does Labor.

You don't need to redefine however imprecise definition of left (what's  left in US is center right in EU except Poland to demonize your opponents.

[urbanoid]

Just now, Strannik said:

That's supporting special interest, nothing "communist" about it.  Saudis subsidize clerics too

As far as "ties with union" - so does Labor.

You don't need to redefine however imprecise definition of left (what's  left in US is center right in EU except Poland to demonize your opponents.

Not that simple, unless we simply throw out the economic angle out of the equation. Sometimes I'm even inclined to do so myself. While our right is rather keen on waging various 'culture wars', they are very interventionist economically and want the state to not only have a lot of say in the economy, but also to participate in it directly by expanding the state-owned companies.

But yeah, if supporting special interests groups was a communist trait, virtually all of the Western mainstream political forces could be called communist, which is ridiculous.

[Ivanhoe]

7 hours ago, sunday said:

Still, that indefinite postponement of elections does not look quite kosher to me...

Its not, but as already stated, the lack of constitutional constraint results in this sort of thing. And IMHO, parliamentary systems tend to have quite a bit of gain in the system. Great, when the majority is trying to do something good, or undo something ungood. Not so great, when appealing but bad ideas arrive at the marketplace of ideas. To wit;

 

[Mighty_Zuk]

26 minutes ago, Strannik said:

That's supporting special interest, nothing "communist" about it.  Saudis subsidize clerics too

As far as "ties with union" - so does Labor.

You don't need to redefine however imprecise definition of left (what's  left in US is center right in EU except Poland to demonize your opponents.

The current government has many policy items in its agenda, and I couldn't bring up all of them here, so I just explained the general idea.

If the relation to communism wasn't clear, I guess it could be summed as such:

Current gov't is generally trying not only to feed the leech sector, but also dismantle the high yield productive sector. In its place, it seeks to create a low yield but highly taxed productive sector that will maximize profits in the very short term (months to several years) and decimate the economy in the longer term. By "maximize" I mean after deducting the massive economical losses due to lower investment and hike in deficit.

This would essentially create a uniform low income, uneducated class while the higher classes will either leave or naturally fade. In the longer term, in terms of civil rights and general ideology, they strive to emulate Afghanistan.

There's a good reason why supporters of the government often portray countries like Venezuela and Cuba very positively.

[Rick]

22 minutes ago, urbanoid said:

Not that simple, unless we simply throw out the economic angle out of the equation. Sometimes I'm even inclined to do so myself. While our right is rather keen on waging various 'culture wars', they are very interventionist economically and want the state to not only have a lot of say in the economy, but also to participate in it directly by expanding the state-owned companies.

But yeah, if supporting special interests groups was a communist trait, virtually all of the Western mainstream political forces could be called communist, which is ridiculous.

This can seem confusing to U.S. voters. We tend to be wholly either/or in regards to culture and the economy.

[Strannik]

Is Bibi the master manipulator, firing a warning shot to US to not interfere with his vision for Israel?

 

 

[BansheeOne]

[BansheeOne]

Quote

After cases of discrimination against women on buses, PM calls to punish offenders

Netanyahu says Israel ‘a free country, in which nobody will set limits on who can use public transportation,’ following series of incidents involving drivers and Haredi passengers

By TOI STAFF

14 Aug 2023, 5:51 pm  

Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu on Monday condemned discrimination against secular women by bus drivers or by Haredi passengers, following a recent series of such incidents.

In a terse statement, Netanyahu called for anyone who discriminates against passengers on public transportation to be punished.

“The State of Israel is a free country, in which nobody will set limits on who can use public transportation, and in which nobody will dictate where he or she will sit,” he said. “Those who do this are breaking the law and should be punished.”

Transportation Minister Miri Regev, a member of Netanyahu’s Likud party, similarly vowed no tolerance for the phenomenon, saying any case of discrimination against female riders should be dealt with “severely.”

She also said two drivers have been suspended over the latest incidents until inquiries are wrapped up.

“I again clarify: There will be no exclusion of women on public transportation. Period,” she said.

The condemnations came a day after a bus driver ordered a group of teenage girls to sit in the back and cover themselves up due to their supposedly immodest dress. In a recording of the incident, which occurred on a Nateev Express 885 line from Ashdod to Kfar Tavor, the driver could be heard dismissing the girls’ complaints when one told him she felt humiliated.

“Enough with this nonsense, you don’t have religious people in your home. You live in a kibbutz, detached from the world. You live in a Jewish state and you should respect the people living here. The fact that you live in a kibbutz and were raised this way, I’m sorry for you,” the driver could be heard saying.

Also Sunday, Tzefi Erez, an 88-year-old woman from Givatayim, told the Kan public broadcaster that a bus driver repeatedly ignored her when she asked him if she had gotten on the correct line. When the woman’s husband asked the driver why he wasn’t responding to her, the driver said that he refuses to speak to women.

“I was deeply hurt. I am a Holocaust survivor,” the woman said. “I’ve suffered enough… I came to the State of Israel, and suddenly I’m in Iran. Tomorrow they’ll tell me to cover my face.”

The Dan bus company put out a statement apologizing for the incident, and said that it had personally contacted Erez and her husband, though Erez said that no one from Dan had spoken to her.

Two similar instances occurred last week. A bus driver in Ashdod told a woman that she could not board a bus because it was meant only for ultra-Orthodox men, and in Tel Aviv a driver berated a woman for wearing a tank top.

Some so-called mehadrin (strictly kosher) buses, which enforced gender separation to accommodate ultra-Orthodox passengers by having men sit in the front and women in the back, operated in Israel until the High Court of Justice ruled in 2011 that the practice was illegal.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/after-cases-of-discrimination-against-women-on-buses-pm-calls-to-punish-offenders/

[Mighty_Zuk]

14 hours ago, BansheeOne said:

https://www.timesofisrael.com/after-cases-of-discrimination-against-women-on-buses-pm-calls-to-punish-offenders/

What if I told you, it was Netanyahu's fault to begin with?

[BansheeOne]

I'd sorta believe you since several of his old and new coalition partners seem to be promoting this. Wasn't the minister of tourism recently slapped down by the Supreme Court when she tried to introduce gender-segregated bathing areas or something?

[Mighty_Zuk]

1 hour ago, BansheeOne said:

I'd sorta believe you since several of his old and new coalition partners seem to be promoting this. Wasn't the minister of tourism recently slapped down by the Supreme Court when she tried to introduce gender-segregated bathing areas or something?

You can pick any particularly stupid coalition MK and say "wow this has to be the dumbest person alive" and it still won't reach the top 30 in the coalition. That's how dumb they all are.

There's still nothing legal about discriminating against women in Israel. Those bus drivers probably know they're committing a criminal offense with a typical fine of $4,000. But they feel encouraged to rear their ugly heads because the government is run by monkeys.

[urbanoid]

We don't have 'Because, Ukraine', but since it also concerns Israel...

Quote

Ukraine: If Israel is not open to Ukrainians, Uman will be closed to Israeli pilgrims

Ukraine will terminate its visa waiver agreement with Israel too, President Volodymyr Zelensky warns as part of his weekly address; 'The rights of Ukrainian citizens must be guaranteed'

The government of Ukraine has called on Israel to stop turning away Ukrainian refugees. If this does not stop, Ukraine will not allow Israeli pilgrims travel to Uman for the upcoming High Holiday season and will terminate its visa waiver agreement with Israel, according to Ukrainian officials.

The message was delivered in President Volodymyr Zelensky's most recent address to his nation and by the Ukrainian ambassador to Israel.

Zelensky in a stern message to Israel as part of his weekly briefing to the citizens of Ukraine: "I listened to the reports of the Border Guard, the Foreign Ministry, the intelligence on the treatment of our citizens – refugees who are in different countries, and regarding visa arrangements. The issues that the citizens of Ukraine actually face in obtaining visas. The rights of Ukrainian citizens must be guaranteed."

Ukraine's ambassador to Israel Yevgen Korniychuk clarified that President Zelensky's words were directed at Israel: "The government of Ukraine will not tolerate humiliation of its citizens upon entering Israel. We will stop our bilateral visa waiver agreements as stipulated in Article 7 of the intergovernmental agreement. This possibility is on the table of our government," he said.

"It is unthinkable that we would have to go out of our way to host tens of thousands of Israelis in Uman, with a high security risk, and with a huge logistical effort, when on the other hand the Israeli government mistreats our citizens who come to Israel as part of the treaty between our two countries. If Israel wants its citizens to be able to come to Ukraine as tourists, I believe that Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, should intervene, personally, in finding a solution to the current state of affairs," he said.

A few weeks ago in Kyiv, news outlets reported that Ukraine is considering canceling the visa exemption for Israeli citizens who come to its territory in order to prevent the Hasidic pilgrims from coming to Uman on Rosh Hashanah and also as a "reciprocal measure" for Israel's attitude toward the Ukrainian authorities. However, in Israel at the time it was believed to be an idle threat.

In June 2022, Korniychuk said in an interview in Ukraine that Kyiv is considering temporarily suspending the visa exemption for Israelis - in response, according to him, to the "unjustified restrictions imposed by Israel on the entry of Ukrainian citizens into its territory." Then Korniychuk: "Maybe now it won't be felt, but before Rosh Hashanah the Israeli government will feel it."

A week and a half ago, Ynet revealed that approximately 14,000 refugees from Ukraine who arrived in Israel since the outbreak of the war - are no longer eligible to receive health services because their medical insurance has expired, and the Ministry of Finance has not extended its validity. Following the disclosure, it was decided to extend the medical insurance for refugees from Ukraine, but only until the end of the year.

https://www.ynetnews.com/article/hkoievkan?

[Mighty_Zuk]

10 hours ago, urbanoid said:

We don't have 'Because, Ukraine', but since it also concerns Israel...

https://www.ynetnews.com/article/hkoievkan?

For all I care they can close Uman without justification. But Ukraine is not in a position to make such demands, especially of Israel since they were asked from the beginning of the war to end the anti-Israel and sometimes even antisemitic rhetoric they use on international forums.

[JWB]

 

[urbanoid]

Based and deportationpilled.

[Mighty_Zuk]

18 minutes ago, urbanoid said:

Based and deportationpilled.

Virgin and gaysexwithultraorthodoxmen-pilled. 

Netanyahu declared in 2018 that he reached a UN-brokered deal with European nations to deport half (16,000) of them to Europe and assimilate the other half. No less than a day later he said he withdrew from the agreement due to internal opposition (as if he ever cared about opposition and public opinion).

Now he blames the supreme court which has actually been pushing him to resolve the issue the entire time, as well as the opposition camp for "ruining everything for him". He's a big cry baby and nothing more. All he and his ministers know how to do is fail miserably and blame everyone else. 

Deporting them would actually require something to be done, so I'm very skeptical they'll actually be deported. What they'll probably do is create another issue to deflect, then if the opposition is elected they'll blame it on them. 

So far the only person they managed to deport is the Libyan minister of foreign affairs, and probably scared off half the Arab world from even talking to them.

[BansheeOne]

Irony is when the Israeli ambassador of all people relays a complaint by his government that his German counterpart made a statement about internal affairs of the host nation merely by attending a supreme court session on the judicial reform. 😄

Quote

Germany defends ambassador after Israeli complaint

17 hours ago

Israel complained about the presence of German Ambassador Steffen Seibert at a meeting in Israel's Supreme Court. Reform of that institution, sought by the government, is a contentious domestic issue in Israel.

The German Foreign Ministry and chancellor on Monday defended Berlin's ambassador to Israel after a complaint was lodged via Israel's embassy in Berlin against the diplomat.

Israel considered it as interference in internal affairs when German Ambassador Steffen Seibert attended a Supreme Court session in Jerusalem as a spectator last Tuesday.

The complaint from Israeli Foreign Minister Eli Cohen was reportedly through the Israeli ambassador in Berlin, Ron Prosor. 

The issue was first reported in Israeli media, but the spokeswoman for Israel's Berlin embassy later told DW:

"Following a directive by Minister Cohen, a senior official spoke to Ambassador Seibert and voiced our protest on the matter. Similar messages were conveyed by the embassy in Berlin to the German Foreign Ministry," she said. 

What did Germany say? 

A German Foreign Ministry spokesman had told DW earlier on Monday that the ministry had not received any official complaints directly from Israel's Foreign Ministry regarding Seibert's presence at Israel's Supreme Court.

The ministry also defended Seibert against criticism from Israel. "Following relevant political procedures, especially when they are public, is a completely normal part of the work of every diplomat," a spokesman said in response to a DW query.

He added that Seibert attending such an event was "a quite excellent example of common diplomatic practice." 

[...]

Why did Seibert visit the Supreme Court?

Israel's Supreme Court had dealt with a highly controversial judicial shake-up by the right-wing religious government in a historic court hearing on Tuesday. For the first time in the country's history, all 15 judges came together to deliberate on eight petitions against an amendment to the Basic Law that had been passed.

Seibert, who attended the session as a spectator, posted on X that the Israeli Supreme Court was "the place to be this morning." At the end of the nearly 14-hour session, presiding judge Esther Chajut granted a period of 21 days to submit amendments.

In a video posted on X, Seibert said in Hebrew, "I think something important is happening here for Israeli democracy, and we, as friends of Israel, are also looking with a lot of interest towards the Supreme Court, and I wanted to see for myself."

Seibert is probably best known, in Germany and abroad, for the several years he spent as former Chancellor Angela Merkel's press spokesman before becoming a diplomat. 

https://www.dw.com/en/germany-defends-ambassador-after-israeli-complaint/a-66843479

[Mighty_Zuk]

57 minutes ago, BansheeOne said:

Irony is when the Israeli ambassador of all people relays a complaint by his government that his German counterpart made a statement about internal affairs of the host nation merely by attending a supreme court session on the judicial reform. 😄

https://www.dw.com/en/germany-defends-ambassador-after-israeli-complaint/a-66843479

Nearly all of Israel's key ambassadors are populist political appointments. Best to disregard them. The German ambassador to Israel seems like a cool fella.

[BansheeOne]

The thing is, as Merkel's spokesman he articulated the "Merkel doctrine" that Israel's security is raison d'etat for Germany for years; it's no accident he became ambassador to Israel afterwards, though he's actually a journalist by profession. And I see he went to the length of learning to express himself in the language of the host country, which too few political appointees in such positions do.

If there is one guy with the public credentials of support for Israel to fill that post, it's him; so accusing him of any ill-willed interference for simply attending a court session, and commenting how important it is, is rather silly. Particularly since his Israeli counterparts, whatever their background, regularly comment on issues like anti-Semitism in German domestic political debate - which everyone expects of them, and few mind, but of course can be technically construed to be interference with internal affairs, too.

[Mighty_Zuk]

22 minutes ago, BansheeOne said:

The thing is, as Merkel's spokesman he articulated the "Merkel doctrine" that Israel's security is raison d'etat for Germany for years; it's no accident he became ambassador to Israel afterwards, though he's actually a journalist by profession. And I see he went to the length of learning to express himself in the language of the host country, which too few political appointees in such positions do.

If there is one guy with the public credentials of support for Israel to fill that post, it's him; so accusing him of any ill-willed interference for simply attending a court session, and commenting how important it is, is rather silly. Particularly since his Israeli counterparts, whatever their background, regularly comment on issues like anti-Semitism in German domestic political debate - which everyone expects of them, and few mind, but of course can be technically construed to be interference with internal affairs, too.

Hence me saying it's best to disregard Israeli ambassadors, ministers, prime ministers, sub ministers, and governmental falafel vendors which for some reason have serious political weight. Until the current government changes, treat them as babies.

[Ssnake]

It's just a hunch, but I got this odd vibe that you might not be your current government's biggest fan.

[Mighty_Zuk]

9 minutes ago, Ssnake said:

It's just a hunch, but I got this odd vibe that you might not be your current government's biggest fan.

I openly called for physical violence against them so yes, there may be some truth in what you say.

[Ivanhoe]

https://reason.com/volokh/2023/09/18/the-irony-of-the-battle-over-legal-reform-in-israel/

 

Quote

 

The Israeli Supreme Court has accrued to itself more power than any other Supreme Court in the world. Even more striking, the attorney general has power to by herself undermine almost any Israeli law or policy, a power that is shocking to those of us used to the American concept of separation of powers. And both the Supreme Court and the Attorney General have seized these powers based on only the flimsiest of rationales.

...

None of those developments managed to galvanize the Zionist left. Instead, relatively minor proposed limits to the authority of the attorney general and the supreme court, which would still have powers unheard of in most of the democratic world, has led to months of mass demonstrations and general social turmoil.

 

 

[Mighty_Zuk]

1 hour ago, Ivanhoe said:

https://reason.com/volokh/2023/09/18/the-irony-of-the-battle-over-legal-reform-in-israel/

 

 

That's a very good definition of cherry picking, I'd say. These 2 paragraphs do not convey the author's beliefs whatsoever, and alone are entirely detached from reality. 

Proponents of the "judicial reforms" may speak about this value or that, but they entirely miss out the bigger picture which is Israel's system of checks and balances. Israel has no constitution and no relevant mechanism to uphold a hypothetical constitution. Any and every law is passed and amended with a relative majority, including the quasi-constitutional "Basic Laws". 

The supreme court's reasonableness clause is the only form of checks and balances Israel has. It's the first and final barrier.

All parties, from the entire spectrum, believe that SOME reform must be made. What's so contentious is the specific implementation the current government seeks, and the reason it's sought. 

The article itself was very interesting, however the writer is wrong to refer to the protest movement as "left". It's mostly center, and contains more right wing elements than left wing ones.

[BansheeOne]

I thought this might better be placed here than on the burgeoning Israel-Gaza thread, since while related to those events, it more concerns future domestic development.

Quote

Not just prayers: War sparks unprecedented mobilization by ultra-Orthodox Israelis

Some 2,000 volunteer IDF soldiers are at the forefront of an effort that some hope will change the minority’s relationship with the rest of society long-term

By CANAAN LIDOR Today, 3:03 pm

When war broke out, Pini Einhorn and Moishe Roth found themselves suddenly out of work.

The popular Haredi musician duo canceled all the concerts they had lined up for what was supposed to be one of the busiest times of the year, just after the Jewish autumn holidays.

Einhorn and Roth initially channeled their free time toward joining countless Israelis delivering food to soldiers and residents of the south. But the surplus of volunteers made the pair look for alternative ways to contribute, said Einhorn, a 34-year-old father of four.

So they decided to do what they know best: playing music for groups of people. In just a few days, the pair have visited over 100 houses of mourning in hopes of helping console families in the depths of sorrow as they observe the traditional seven-day shiva bereavement period for their slain loved ones. While musical instruments are generally prohibited by Jewish law during mourning periods, the two sing hymns when requested.

Their activities are part of an unprecedented push by Haredim, who by and large avoid army service, to contribute to the war effort in myriad ways — including by volunteering for the military.

Occurring at what is arguably a low point in relations between secular and Haredi Jews in Israel, some believe these new expressions of solidarity will help lead to long-term changes in each side’s attitudes toward the other.

“The Haredi public is mobilized in an unprecedented way,” said Yitzhak Pindrus, a lawmaker for the ultra-Orthodox United Torah Judaism party. “Everyone is doing something in addition to praying,” he told The Times of Israel.

At least 2,000 Haredi men have signed up to serve in the Israeli Defense Forces, according to Eliyahu Glantzenberg, a 38-year-old Haredi community activist from Petah Tikvah near Tel Aviv.

A high-tech professional working for the Freesbe branding agency, he launched an initiative together with the former top rabbi of the Israel Air Force, Moshe Raved, through which Haredim could sign up to be recruited into the army.

On Saturday, IDF Spokesman Rear Adm. Hagari said the IDF had received more than 2,000 requests from Haredim in recent days. They will begin to be drafted as volunteers on Monday, he said.

An abbreviated basic training is set to open for hundreds of them, the Israel Defense Forces Spokesperson’s Unit told The Times of Israel.

“It’s to fill gaps: drivers, programmers, cooks. Whatever’s necessary,” said Glantzenberg of the recruits.

The list of volunteers is growing as people from the Haredi world spread the word in synagogue and on WhatsApp groups, among those Haredim who use smartphones.

Haredi women and male yeshivah students younger than 26 are generally exempt from military service thanks to a controversial status quo agreement. In 2017, the High Court of Justice invalidated the legal exemption and ordered the government to pass a new conscription law. The government has extended the non-conscription policy and Haredi politicians have sought to pass legislation cementing the exemptions.

Many Haredim believe that studying Torah helps protect the Jewish people and even the state, while serving time in the army would dilute adherence to their strict ways of life and lead impressionable members of the community astray. Among non-Haredi Jews, this is often perceived as draft dodging by a group that refuses to integrate into mainstream society.

At the same time, authorities make no effort to recruit most Haredim who should legally be drafted, according to what Amir Vadmani, head of the IDF Manpower Directorate’s Planning and Research Department, told a Knesset committee in May.

“The undisputed reality is that the army did not want to conscript Haredim,” Glantzenberg said. The war “could change this: It is already making the army need more manpower and it’s making Haredim more interested in serving.”

Israel was changed forever on October 7, when Hamas killed about 1,400 in a brutal incursion into Israel, and kidnapped at least 200 more.

The resulting war is “changing the dynamic of Haredim vis-à-vis the army and vice versa,” Glantzenberg said.

[...]

Some radical Haredim have continued to harass and even assault other Haredim who serve in the army, which the radicals perceive as an immoral action.

One extremist was arrested on Monday in Jerusalem for accosting a Haredi man in uniform. But the war has further delegitimized the radicals’ position, according to Glantzenberg.

“Everybody now realizes we’re in the same boat,” he said.

Pindrus, the lawmaker, is not convinced that the war will bring about greater unity between Haredim, whom many seculars view as backward freeloaders, and seculars, whom many Haredim view as godless heathens undermining Jewish life.

“I’d love to tell you positive things about imminent fraternity,” he told The Times of Israel. “But we have entered an enormous event, whose magnitude, duration, and fallout are all completely unknown to us. We may emerge more united. We may come out even more divided. It all depends on God’s will and our choices.”

[...]

https://www.timesofisrael.com/not-just-prayers-war-sparks-unprecedented-mobilization-by-ultra-orthodox-israelis/