Because, Israel

[rmgill]

1 hour ago, urbanoid said:

Ok, just keep in mind that those guys usually had wives and children, for them boinking other guys was just a... hobby I guess. And they were Stronk Gheys™, not Weak Faggots™ babbling about some 'equality', 'rights', 'acceptance' or similar ridiculous notions.

Btw. didn't we just enter a complete wacko territory with all this splitting of the Juiceland?

Stuart and Zuk advocating male on male buggery as a marker for a successful society? Yeah.....

[sunday]

Nice to have confirmation of the wisdom of a ignore policy.

[Mighty_Zuk]

1 hour ago, BansheeOne said:

In fact I believe that's exactly what adherents to the idea want - a return to the "good old" Israel carried by pioneer spirit and sense of community, not burdened militarily and morally by occupation and insurgency, and not divided by a growing religious demographic of which some don't even recognize the state, won't serve in the army or even work for their own upkeep, but monopolize family courts and insist on strict sabbath rules, gender segregation and female modesty to the point you can't show ads with women in them and "improperly" dressed ones will be harrassed in the streets of certain quarters.

It's again not so different from the wish for the "good old" America by the American Right, and I suspect like all the people wishing back the "good old times" in the face of developments and excesses in the modern world their hopes are gonna be disappointed.

Almost. The Israeli political center is not wishing for the "good old" borderline communist Israel, but rather to be more like a normal western, perhaps European nation. 

[rmgill]

You might work on a constitution. 

[Stuart Galbraith]

3 hours ago, rmgill said:

Stuart and Zuk advocating male on male buggery as a marker for a successful society? Yeah.....

Quite the opposite. Im suggesting that homosexuality does not in itself preclude a successful society.

And its not even me thats doing it, which as usual you mentally airbrush in your own particular way.

https://www.theguardian.com/notesandqueries/query/0,,-1433,00.html

CHURCHILL'S description of the Royal Navy is included in the Oxford Dictionary of Quotations as having appeared in the book, Former Navy Person, by Sir Peter Gretton. The Oxford Dictionary suggests that Churchill's phrase should be compared with naval phrases dating from the 19th century - 'Rum, bum and bacca' and 'Ashore, it's wine, women and song, aboard it's rum, bum and concertina'.

It looks as though here, as elsewhere, Churchill took an earlier quotation and improved upon it. In The Irrepressible Churchill, compiled by Kay Halle (Robson Books, 1985), Churchill is said to have used the phrase in 1913, when he was First Lord of the Admiralty. According to 'an ear-witness', he was having trouble with some of his admirals at a strategy meeting. One of them accused him of having impugned the traditions of the Royal Navy, provoking the reply: 'And what are they? They are rum, sodomy and the lash'.

[Stuart Galbraith]

1 hour ago, Mighty_Zuk said:

Almost. The Israeli political center is not wishing for the "good old" borderline communist Israel, but rather to be more like a normal western, perhaps European nation. 

When you say borderline Communist Israel, do you associate the militarism and the continued conflict, with the influx of Eastern European, not least Russian, Jewry?

Im not ridiculing your perception, I just find it an interesting perspective.I usually associate the conflict with the political right, but as we can see in some other places, political polarity sometimes flips when a populist leader gets in.

 

[urbanoid]

36 minutes ago, Stuart Galbraith said:

When you say borderline Communist Israel, do you associate the militarism and the continued conflict, with the influx of Eastern European, not least Russian, Jewry?

Im not ridiculing your perception, I just find it an interesting perspective.I usually associate the conflict with the political right, but as we can see in some other places, political polarity sometimes flips when a populist leader gets in.

 

'Borderline communist' as in early years of the state. They made enough of an impression to have Stalin support them in the 1948 war. 

[R011]

9 hours ago, Mighty_Zuk said:

The greek lasted fairly long.

Probably because the percentage of people who are exclusively homosexual is about the same whether a civilization is gay friendly or homophobic.

[Tim Sielbeck]

On 4/2/2023 at 6:16 AM, BansheeOne said:

Well, if you based it on the last election then this is how it would look:

[rmgill]

States would take their major counties with them. Some state would split. The state of Georgia would keep the little blue belt because there'd be an exodus of blues from the area. Some of it would be impossible to secede as it would be a little island of blue county surrounded by red. Northern Virginia would detach to join Maryland and anything SW of Culpeper would stay with Virginia. 

[Josh]

1 hour ago, rmgill said:

States would take their major counties with them. Some state would split. The state of Georgia would keep the little blue belt because there'd be an exodus of blues from the area. Some of it would be impossible to secede as it would be a little island of blue county surrounded by red. Northern Virginia would detach to join Maryland and anything SW of Culpeper would stay with Virginia. 

It would be impossible to divide the country's infrastructure that way unless it was completely amicable, and that seems exceedingly unlikely. Both sides would have to share the power, communications, highway, railway, and pipeline systems. The one thing that probably would be largely blue would be container ship terminals; by the same token a large percentage of the overland connections to Mexico and Canada would be red.

Then there's currency, splitting the military resources and bases (USN would be mostly located blue, USAF would be practically all red, Army bases probably more red), nuclear weapons, debt, treaty obligations...in short, negotiating it would be impossible, far less so than simply muddling through the current federal government.

I'd also argue that people who talk about such situations left and right are fridge elements who don't really support an amicable split as much as they mean taking anything of value and leaving the other side with nothing.

[Mighty_Zuk]

17 hours ago, rmgill said:

You might work on a constitution. 

That's what the political center wanted for a very long time. But we also never really had a sizable majority that would allow such an endeavor.

15 hours ago, Stuart Galbraith said:

When you say borderline Communist Israel, do you associate the militarism and the continued conflict, with the influx of Eastern European, not least Russian, Jewry?

Im not ridiculing your perception, I just find it an interesting perspective.I usually associate the conflict with the political right, but as we can see in some other places, political polarity sometimes flips when a populist leader gets in.

 

I mean Israel's first few decades. The only-just-established government, not really developed infrastructure, and a massive influx of immigrants all. the. time. Israel had a period called "Modesty regime", as whatever little money it had, most of it was spent on defense, and the rest could not have been spent on the cheapest, most competitive goods because of some new embargo every 5 minutes.

[BansheeOne]

3 hours ago, Josh said:

I'd also argue that people who talk about such situations left and right are fridge elements

Heat pumps which want to disconnect from the cooling loops over disagreement on the thermostat setting? 🤔

Dividing by county obviously would be problematic since they might be blue in one election and red in the next. Also, what with the ones which vote for a R president, D senator, R congressman, D governor, R state senator, D state congressman ... you'd have to have a vote specifically on what part they want to join, and then you'd really end up with a patchwork map full of islands in hostile waters.

For Israel, things look somewhat less finicky, though obviously politics of local voters change from election to election, too.

2022:

[Stuart Galbraith]

17 hours ago, urbanoid said:

'Borderline communist' as in early years of the state. They made enough of an impression to have Stalin support them in the 1948 war. 

I seem to recall an Israeli Historian, forget his name but he wrote a fascinating book called 'Fighting WW3 from the Middle East', that looked through British Archives and found evidence that the British were convinced with all the emigration from the USSR, that Israel could become Stalins stalking horse in the middle east. Which to be fair, didnt take into account how those jews had been treated in the USSR.

[BansheeOne]

Meanwhile the opposition seems to try holding the protests alive with the issue of Haredim privileges.

Quote

‘Day of Equality’ sought to revitalize protests; limited turnout underlines challenge

Demonstrations against Haredi military exemptions, religious and gender inequality were an effort to restore momentum of anti-overhaul movement, but public’s response was muted

By Jeremy Sharon

4 May 2023, 11:19 pm

For two days at the end of March, the rising swell of protests against the government’s radical judicial overhaul program broke into a huge wave that swept everything aside.

After Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu fired his defense minister for stating publicly that the reforms were damaging the cohesion of the Israel Defense Forces and must be halted, masses of Israelis rose up at night, blocked highways, set fires and besieged the prime minister’s residence.

The next day, the protests spawned mass strikes including at seaports and Ben Gurion Airport, large parts of the country came to a standstill, and a huge demonstration was staged outside the Knesset to make clear to the lawmakers inside exactly what was at stake.

The culmination of these events was Netanyahu’s decision to suspend pending legislation designed to give the government almost complete control over judicial appointments, in order to allow time for negotiations with the opposition over the reforms.

This was the high-water mark, so far, for the protest movement. Weekend rallies around the country have continued to draw hundreds of thousands out into the streets, but with the legislative freeze, the Knesset Passover recess, and the ongoing negotiations, the ardor of the campaign has naturally waned to a degree.

Even now, with the Knesset back in session, the government is chiefly preoccupied with passing a budget before the May 29 deadline to prevent the automatic dissolution of the Knesset and new elections, among other political problems.

Nevertheless, the Judicial Selection Committee overhaul bill remains on the cusp of being passed into law, requiring just two back-to-back votes in the Knesset plenum which can be scheduled at a moment’s notice.

And so despite the lull in legislative activity, the protest movement and its leadership remains acutely aware that there is a Sword of Damocles hanging over its hitherto impressive achievements.

Thursday’s “Day of Disruption” was therefore an effort to reinvigorate the struggle and rebuild the incredibly powerful momentum of the protests which led so dramatically to the legislative freeze in March.

It appears that protest leaders understood that rebuilding that momentum in the absence of the clear and present threat of the imminent passage of the judicial overhaul legislation would be a difficult task. Aware ahead of time of the danger of decreased motivation, the protest movement on Thursday duly focused on other highly contentious items on the government’s policy agenda, with a particular emphasis on matters of societal inequality, in order to stir the masses and give a boost to the protest movement.

For that purpose, the issue of ultra-Orthodox military service exemptions, a longstanding and suppurating wound in Israeli society, was made into one of the key focal points of the day.

But organizers’ efforts had limited success, with the number of protesters at the dozens of events around the country significantly lower than the vast crowds who participated in previous “Disruption Days.”

Netanyahu has promised the ultra-Orthodox parties to re-legislate the exemptions, which were struck down by the High Court of Justice as fundamentally discriminatory in 2017.

With increasing pressure from United Torah Judaism, in particular, to make good on those promises, the protest movement clearly hoped the issue could be an effective way to bring out protesters and drum up energy by drawing attention to what would be a highly unpopular measure by the government.

And while the numerous events around the country were lively and attention-grabbing, they were also clearly far more sparsely attended than in the past.

[...]

The current coalition’s inclusion of religiously ultra-conservative and ultra-Orthodox parties is widely seen by the general public as leading obstacles to resolving these issues.

Indeed, another coalition pledge by Netanyahu to the ultra-Orthodox parties is to increase the authority of the rabbinical courts.

So lifting up these concerns on the banner of the protest movement made sense as part of an effort to recapture the momentum of the intense and fervid days before the judicial overhaul legislation was frozen.

It is also a somewhat natural progression for a movement that, to a certain extent, evolved out of the anti-government and anti-Netanyahu protests that gripped the country in 2020 and 2021.

With participation noticeably weaker than during previous days of protest and lacking their intensity, it seemed the issue, while certainly of concern to many, was not enough to draw out massive crowds on a workday the way an ostensible imminent danger to Israeli democracy was.

It seems that the next steps for the protest movement are now being put in motion. Over the last two days, protest leaders have begun to renew their criticism of Yesh Atid and National Unity over the negotiations with the coalition under the auspices of President Isaac Herzog.

Protest groups called on Wednesday for the opposition parties to set a deadline for the negotiations, specifically over the issue of the Judicial Selection Committee which lies at the heart of the dispute.

[...]

It appears that the opposition parties are indeed listening, with Yesh Atid demanding on Thursday that the negotiations next week be entirely dedicated to the Judicial Selection Committee. Sources in the party indicated that it was losing patience and becoming less willing to continue negotiations if agreements on that issue are not now quickly reached.

Thus, the groundwork is clearly being laid for the next stage of the demonstrations. Whether these will be able to muster the support of the masses remains to be seen.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/day-of-equality-sought-to-revitalize-protests-limited-turnout-underscores-challenge/

[BansheeOne]

Quote

Israel braces for massive protests ahead of new judicial reform vote

The country has been rocked by seven months of demonstrations which last week shut down central Tel Aviv

Jul 09, 2023

Israel was on edge on Sunday ahead of a parliament vote on judicial reform that critics warn could set back democracy in the country and centralise power in the hands of Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu.

Last week, protests in Tel Aviv closed off a major motorway in the city, causing chaos for commuters after local police commissioner Ami Eshed resigned, having refused to take tough measures against demonstrators, which were called for by controversial National Security Minister Itamar Ben-Gvir.

Anticipating more protests after the Monday vote, Mr Netanyahu summoned his attorney-general for a cabinet meeting about police counter-measures. Last week, one of the country’s largest supermarket chains said it would shut down its stores for a day if the judicial reform passes in parliament.

[...]

Reasonableness controversy

On Monday, parliament will hold a vote on a key aspect of the reforms, the abolition of the judicial “reasonableness” doctrine, which is applied by courts to cabinet decisions.

The doctrine has allowed the Supreme Court to intervene in government decisions and sometimes overrule them when they do not meet the criteria to be deemed “reasonable.”

Government decisions are generally deemed unreasonable by the courts when they perceive an abuse of power or a decision that fails to consider the needs of communities affected by government actions. Critics say whether something is reasonable or not is subjective and that the doctrine allows unelected judges to interfere with how elected officials run the country.

[...]

Israeli media estimated turnout at Saturday's protest in Tel Aviv - the 27th since the reform agenda was unveiled in January - at 150,000, ahead of a parliamentary vote on a key provision of the proposed overhaul, set to take place on Monday.

Police did not give the number of demonstrators.

[...]

https://www.thenationalnews.com/mena/2023/07/09/israel-braces-for-massive-protests-ahead-of-new-judicial-reform-vote/

[Mighty_Zuk]

6 minutes ago, BansheeOne said:

https://www.thenationalnews.com/mena/2023/07/09/israel-braces-for-massive-protests-ahead-of-new-judicial-reform-vote/

Unfortunately all the protests are far from my home so I can't attend. Bummer. 

[urbanoid]

Uh, how far? The country isn't that big all in all.

[Mighty_Zuk]

1 hour ago, urbanoid said:

Uh, how far? The country isn't that big all in all.

If it's a driving distance, it's too far. Roads are blocked during protests.

[Mighty_Zuk]

Protests keep snowballing. The path is clear - no violence, only national shutdown.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/elite-commando-reservists-said-to-refuse-volunteer-duty-as-overhaul-protest-widens/

Edited July 15 by Mighty_Zuk

[Murph]

WOW!!! WTF is happening?

[Mighty_Zuk]

10 hours ago, Murph said:

WOW!!! WTF is happening?

It's been almost 7 months since new gov't sworn in, and it's been an absolute clown show ever since. Netanyahu often compares himself to Orban, Putin, Lukashenko. People are sick of it and want him out. Out of, like, what, 45 ministerial positions? Only 1 has actually served as an active minister and that's for maybe 2 weeks. The rest are still not active ministers. The Minister of Propaganda (yes there's such a thing now) didn't even get a printer to make flyers.

People understand his weakpoints. He was once Mr. Economy. But the current economical collapse is his doing and everyone knows that.

He was once Mr. Security, but Lapid absolutely schooled him, and reservists are willing to tear apart the military to bring him to heel. 

He leads the conservatives, but soon they'll learn their camp mates - the Ultra Orthodox, hate them just the same.

 

[Murph]

WOW, I had no idea it was that bad in Israel.  Almost sounds like the crap show that is the US right now.

[Ssnake]

I don't see US democracy, judicial independence, and the general checks and balances in the system in danger. Some power abuse, yes. Some failure of the press to report on certain things, too. But generally the system is still intact, after eight years of Bush ("PATRIOT" Act), eight years of Obama (where do I even start), four years of Trump (not half as bad as his opponents said, not half as good as his supporters say), three years of Biden (corrupt, and senile).

So, the situation in Israel is far more serious.

[Mighty_Zuk]

20 minutes ago, Ssnake said:

I don't see US democracy, judicial independence, and the general checks and balances in the system in danger. Some power abuse, yes. Some failure of the press to report on certain things, too. But generally the system is still intact, after eight years of Bush ("PATRIOT" Act), eight years of Obama (where do I even start), four years of Trump (not half as bad as his opponents said, not half as good as his supporters say), three years of Biden (corrupt, and senile).

So, the situation in Israel is far more serious.

Indeed. What we're seeing in the US regarding their supreme court causing mayhem is a problem, but of a lower magnitude. For Israel, the "reasonableness clause" is the last line of defense in terms of checks and balances.

Some might say "But it didn't exist until not so long ago, so why didn't Israel turn into a dictatorship back then?". Well that's because stupid people weren't as much of a demographic threat as they are today. Unfortunately we elected dumbasses that whole time, and they didn't set up the proper checks and balances that were required and now Bib is shitting on the whole country.