Mighty_Zuk Posted April 1, 2023 Posted April 1, 2023 6 hours ago, glenn239 said: In that list? I'd say its #3. (Ok, I may have added #3 myself, but still). The point is this. Gaza is a prison with no prison guards. These have withdrawn to outside the prison and allow the most ruthless prisoners to run the joint. Then, the guards bitch that the women and moderate men haven't taken over. Ok, and?
Mighty_Zuk Posted April 1, 2023 Posted April 1, 2023 6 hours ago, glenn239 said: Yes, once some army or other has cleared out Hamas and restored a normal civil government. If that army will not be Israel's, then perhaps given recent tectonic shifts in Middle Eastern alignments, perhaps some other group will do so. I thought that NATO should do it in order to ward off the possibility that some other new sheriff would take over. And that's the problem with the rules based order, Ssnake. If you don't have more guns, you can't have one set of rules for Israel and another for Gaza. Every time Israel came in and destroyed the local terrorist organizations, they rose again because the Palestinians want them there.
Mighty_Zuk Posted April 2, 2023 Posted April 2, 2023 (edited) Probably an April 1st joke, but it does have a serious, depressing undertone. https://www.kan.org.il/item/?itemId=149129 Israel's public broadcasting corporation, Kan, reportedly conducted a poll that asked voters for both camps (coalition, opposition), if Israel was split again into 2 states - Israel and Judea, where would they choose to live? Israel - secular, progressive, modern. Judea - religious, conservative. Coalition voters - 55% Judea, 16% Israel. Opposition voters - 3% Judea, 88% Israel. However, of all respondents, 62% were against having a split in the first place. I think the results are real, but the poll was just made for April Fools. Still, I decided to post this, because this is actually something I proposed a while ago as a solution to the current situation. Edited April 2, 2023 by Mighty_Zuk
BansheeOne Posted April 2, 2023 Author Posted April 2, 2023 Huh, I actually thought about posting something I read in Green-leaning Berlin daily "tageszeitung" this Friday: that the idea of an Israel-Judea split is making the rounds within the protest movement. "Ha'aretz" columnist Ofry Ilani, a historian at the Jerusalem Van Leer Institute, was quoted with observing an "enormous attraction" to it because seculars are done with following the rules of the national-religious and ultra-orthodox while seeing themselves as far bigger contributors to public wealth and security. My first thought was that it was another Americanism, based upon the idea that the US could split into a conservative heartland and liberal coastal territories, frequently mentioned as a result of a possible new civil war. Though looking at voter behavior below the state level, it would be nowhere near that neat, and following divisions on the ground would put the meandering partitions between territories under different control in the West Bank according to Oslo II to shame. Not sure whether that would be even harder or easier in as small a country as Israel. https://bigthink.com/strange-maps/us-red-blue-partition-plan/
Mighty_Zuk Posted April 2, 2023 Posted April 2, 2023 46 minutes ago, BansheeOne said: Huh, I actually thought about posting something I read in Green-leaning Berlin daily "tageszeitung" this Friday: that the idea of an Israel-Judea split is making the rounds within the protest movement. "Ha'aretz" columnist Ofry Ilani, a historian at the Jerusalem Van Leer Institute, was quoted with observing an "enormous attraction" to it because seculars are done with following the rules of the national-religious and ultra-orthodox while seeing themselves as far bigger contributors to public wealth and security. My first thought was that it was another Americanism, based upon the idea that the US could split into a conservative heartland and liberal coastal territories, frequently mentioned as a result of a possible new civil war. Though looking at voter behavior below the state level, it would be nowhere near that neat, and following divisions on the ground would put the meandering partitions between territories under different control in the West Bank according to Oslo II to shame. Not sure whether that would be even harder or easier in as small a country as Israel. In Israel it would also be difficult, but we've done more difficult things. Relocating millions is impossible within months, but who said the disconnection process should be months? Why not a full 40 years multi-phased process in which we first begin with many enclaves and exclaves, then via economical incentives gradually move people over. During that time, voting can be done from each other's territories. We've had, now mostly shelved, projects for massive reconstruction (and relocation) to deal with outdated construction standards. We could revive them. Efficiently, it could be done even within 20 years. I don't think anyone talked about an exact land split, but I propose Israel take its current territories minus most of the Negev, and Judea gets everything south of Beersheba plus the entire Judea & Samaria region, aka the West Bank. Since the settler movement is pro-coalition, I'd gladly let them fight an existential war with the Palestinians over that awful chunk of territory. I don't care about it one bit.
BansheeOne Posted April 2, 2023 Author Posted April 2, 2023 So something like this, with the blue zone stretching a little farther south? Of course you're back to the capital question which has beset the conflict over post-kingdom Palestine since forever - who gets Jerusalem? 😁
Mighty_Zuk Posted April 2, 2023 Posted April 2, 2023 1 hour ago, BansheeOne said: So something like this, with the blue zone stretching a little farther south? Of course you're back to the capital question which has beset the conflict over post-kingdom Palestine since forever - who gets Jerusalem? 😁 The map looks about right. Jerusalem can go to Judea. I know it's kinda the opposite of the historical kingdoms. Judea used to have Jerusalem while Israel had Nablus, but now the territories are reversed and Judea would have Nablus as well. Tel Aviv as the capital for us. Judea is the more religious one anyway.
Ivanhoe Posted April 2, 2023 Posted April 2, 2023 3 hours ago, Mighty_Zuk said: Probably an April 1st joke, but it does have a serious, depressing undertone. https://www.kan.org.il/item/?itemId=149129 Israel's public broadcasting corporation, Kan, reportedly conducted a poll that asked voters for both camps (coalition, opposition), if Israel was split again into 2 states - Israel and Judea, where would they choose to live? Israel - secular, progressive, modern. Judea - religious, conservative. Coalition voters - 55% Judea, 16% Israel. Opposition voters - 3% Judea, 88% Israel. However, of all respondents, 62% were against having a split in the first place. I think the results are real, but the poll was just made for April Fools. Still, I decided to post this, because this is actually something I proposed a while ago as a solution to the current situation. Well, they've done it before. This time around, little risk of Iraq and Iran acting in concert.
Ivanhoe Posted April 2, 2023 Posted April 2, 2023 I assume "new Israel" would need a giant stack of "pizza visas" for Judeans wanting to violate dietary laws on the down-low. BTW, since the FFZ seems to be slacking in these matters of late; Splitters!
BansheeOne Posted April 2, 2023 Author Posted April 2, 2023 I can see it now: new Israel, a strictly secular but multi-religious country full of bacon shops and pride parades with a kickass army; and Judea, a country with gender-segregated public transport which shuts down every Friday and relies on prayer as a national defense strategy. 😄
Mighty_Zuk Posted April 2, 2023 Posted April 2, 2023 2 hours ago, BansheeOne said: I can see it now: new Israel, a strictly secular but multi-religious country full of bacon shops and pride parades with a kickass army; and Judea, a country with gender-segregated public transport which shuts down every Friday and relies on prayer as a national defense strategy. 😄 Statistically gay civilizations are/were much more successful than others.
Rick Posted April 2, 2023 Posted April 2, 2023 1 hour ago, Mighty_Zuk said: Statistically gay civilizations are/were much more successful than others. By definition, a civilization cannot be homosexual and be more successful than others.
rmgill Posted April 2, 2023 Posted April 2, 2023 6 hours ago, Mighty_Zuk said: Statistically gay civilizations are/were much more successful than others. Sure for a generation or two..then they tend to not do so well....
Angrybk Posted April 3, 2023 Posted April 3, 2023 (edited) 13 hours ago, BansheeOne said: Huh, I actually thought about posting something I read in Green-leaning Berlin daily "tageszeitung" this Friday: that the idea of an Israel-Judea split is making the rounds within the protest movement. "Ha'aretz" columnist Ofry Ilani, a historian at the Jerusalem Van Leer Institute, was quoted with observing an "enormous attraction" to it because seculars are done with following the rules of the national-religious and ultra-orthodox while seeing themselves as far bigger contributors to public wealth and security. My first thought was that it was another Americanism, based upon the idea that the US could split into a conservative heartland and liberal coastal territories, frequently mentioned as a result of a possible new civil war. Though looking at voter behavior below the state level, it would be nowhere near that neat, and following divisions on the ground would put the meandering partitions between territories under different control in the West Bank according to Oslo II to shame. Not sure whether that would be even harder or easier in as small a country as Israel. https://bigthink.com/strange-maps/us-red-blue-partition-plan/ The "US voluntarily partitioning" thing comes up all the time, both by serious thinkers (David French) and whackjobs (Marjorie Taylor-Greene). A lot of people think it sounds kind of cool until (like you pointed out) you start looking at it on a local level. A lot of maps a la the bigthink one give the impression that the people who live in the red parts are all Republicans and the people who live in the blue parts are all Democrats, which is really inaccurate -- often it's like 51-49 or something. For example, Texas overall is an archetypal red state, but major cities like Dallas, Houston, Austin etc. are reddish-purple to blue. Not to mention that, for example, NYC progressives are kind of different from Cali progressives (the former tend to focus more on economic stuff while the latter is more about virtue-signaling -- the common complaint is that "Cali Democrats are just Republicans who have gay friends and like the outdoors" ). Edited April 3, 2023 by Angrybk
Mighty_Zuk Posted April 3, 2023 Posted April 3, 2023 8 hours ago, rmgill said: Sure for a generation or two..then they tend to not do so well.... The greek lasted fairly long.
Stuart Galbraith Posted April 3, 2023 Posted April 3, 2023 On 4/1/2023 at 1:33 PM, glenn239 said: Yes, once some army or other has cleared out Hamas and restored a normal civil government. If that army will not be Israel's, then perhaps given recent tectonic shifts in Middle Eastern alignments, perhaps some other group will do so. I thought that NATO should do it in order to ward off the possibility that some other new sheriff would take over. And that's the problem with the rules based order, Ssnake. If you don't have more guns, you can't have one set of rules for Israel and another for Gaza. Russia and China with their Multipolar world theory would solve this at a stroke, just as Russia solved the Austro Hungarian problem for the Serbs. Of course. Im sorry Kissinger ever retired. He wasnt much good, but at least he didnt keep making the same mistakes.
Stuart Galbraith Posted April 3, 2023 Posted April 3, 2023 18 hours ago, BansheeOne said: I can see it now: new Israel, a strictly secular but multi-religious country full of bacon shops and pride parades with a kickass army; and Judea, a country with gender-segregated public transport which shuts down every Friday and relies on prayer as a national defense strategy. 😄 You are essentially splitting Israel between old Eastern European settler zionism, and Palestinian Zionism. I was reading a book some years ago written by a BBC reporter on the 1967, and he talked of one Israeli paratrooper (whom won the IDF highest award in 1967) whom was a descendent of Holocaust survivors. He talked about a split in Israel that didnt start to heal till the Eichman trial, namedly 'Why didnt you fight back?'. It strikes me that perhaps this still marks a difference in atittude that has never entirely healed. 14 hours ago, Rick said: By definition, a civilization cannot be homosexual and be more successful than others.
Stuart Galbraith Posted April 3, 2023 Posted April 3, 2023 1 hour ago, Mighty_Zuk said: The greek lasted fairly long. There was also a Navy that like Rum, sodomy and the lash that seemed to reasonably well for a while.... So what happens next, the protests dont seem to be winding down, they are keeping Bibi on notice. Is he going to try again, or is he going to settle in Yanukovich Avenue?
Mighty_Zuk Posted April 3, 2023 Posted April 3, 2023 On 4/1/2023 at 3:33 PM, glenn239 said: Yes, once some army or other has cleared out Hamas and restored a normal civil government. If that army will not be Israel's, then perhaps given recent tectonic shifts in Middle Eastern alignments, perhaps some other group will do so. I thought that NATO should do it in order to ward off the possibility that some other new sheriff would take over. And that's the problem with the rules based order, Ssnake. If you don't have more guns, you can't have one set of rules for Israel and another for Gaza. The Palestinian desire to be ruled by terrorist regimes is unrelated to Israel. They are ruled by terrorists wherever they are. In Jordan they wanted to overthrow the monarchy - with their own terrorists. In Syria and Lebanon their refugee camps are ruled by... also terrorists. Even when they live a luxurious life in the west, they choose to align themselves with those same terrorists. And if the US were to come in, 1983 Beirut style, to beat up Hamas, well the Palestinians would again install as their leaders a new terrorist regime. Because it's not a political thing - but a cultural one. Think an Afghanistan-style intervention would work? Where they provide modern western education, proper healthcare, infrastructure, and a general improvement in lifestyle? I'm afraid the result would be also exactly like Afghanistan. As soon as the US leaves, the people will immediately go back to their old cultural habits of fucking up everything. That's also exactly how it was in 2005. The Gaza strip was ruled by Israel, they were even given a ton of new infrastructure, pretty much intact Israeli businesses whose Israeli owners were evacuated and ready to jumpstart a Palestinian economy, and what was their first step? Install Hamas as a government. So yeah, short campaigns failed. Long buildups also failed. Gotta be more creative than a simple "let another military try fix a non-military problem".
Mighty_Zuk Posted April 3, 2023 Posted April 3, 2023 5 minutes ago, Stuart Galbraith said: There was also a Navy that like Rum, sodomy and the lash that seemed to reasonably well for a while.... So what happens next, the protests dont seem to be winding down, they are keeping Bibi on notice. Is he going to try again, or is he going to settle in Yanukovich Avenue? As long as the protests are just protests, and don't involve anything violent, the government is safe to do whatever it wants. They want to pass even more stupid legislation? Okay, what are the protesters gonna do, wave another flag? I think the reason Bibi is not rushing to fix this despite the warnings he'll lose the next elections is because he's banking on there not being any more elections. And perhaps he wishes to tire out the protesters, thinking by the end of this term most people would forget.
urbanoid Posted April 3, 2023 Posted April 3, 2023 Ok, just keep in mind that those guys usually had wives and children, for them boinking other guys was just a... hobby I guess. And they were Stronk Gheys™, not Weak Faggots™ babbling about some 'equality', 'rights', 'acceptance' or similar ridiculous notions. Btw. didn't we just enter a complete wacko territory with all this splitting of the Juiceland?
Stuart Galbraith Posted April 3, 2023 Posted April 3, 2023 13 minutes ago, urbanoid said: Ok, just keep in mind that those guys usually had wives and children, for them boinking other guys was just a... hobby I guess. And they were Stronk Gheys™, not Weak Faggots™ babbling about some 'equality', 'rights', 'acceptance' or similar ridiculous notions. Btw. didn't we just enter a complete wacko territory with all this splitting of the Juiceland? But its Tanknet! But you are quite right on the rest. Even Alexander the Great, whom was a famous Irish Soddomite, married Rosario Dawson. So it just goes to show... 17 minutes ago, Mighty_Zuk said: As long as the protests are just protests, and don't involve anything violent, the government is safe to do whatever it wants. They want to pass even more stupid legislation? Okay, what are the protesters gonna do, wave another flag? I think the reason Bibi is not rushing to fix this despite the warnings he'll lose the next elections is because he's banking on there not being any more elections. And perhaps he wishes to tire out the protesters, thinking by the end of this term most people would forget. I could read that two ways, that there will be stability and so he will be in power for some considerable time. Or, there really wont be any more elections. You really think the man is that cracked? Ive never liked him, but I didnt think he would be quite that ambitious.
Mighty_Zuk Posted April 3, 2023 Posted April 3, 2023 11 minutes ago, Stuart Galbraith said: I could read that two ways, that there will be stability and so he will be in power for some considerable time. Or, there really wont be any more elections. You really think the man is that cracked? Ive never liked him, but I didnt think he would be quite that ambitious. Well, I think there's a reason why protesters are warning against dictatorship. On one hand, Bibi says he's a liberal, and that he will keep the more extremist elements of his government in check. On the other hand, he's recently been quickly breaking taboos - in the bad way. It doesn't seem like there's a final limit for him. He does something, and then his voters' base somehow justifies it. At some point he will push for straight up cancelling elections and I can already see how they'll justify it - "to avoid a leftist power grab".
BansheeOne Posted April 3, 2023 Author Posted April 3, 2023 (edited) 1 hour ago, Stuart Galbraith said: You are essentially splitting Israel between old Eastern European settler zionism, and Palestinian Zionism. In fact I believe that's exactly what adherents to the idea want - a return to the "good old" Israel carried by pioneer spirit and sense of community, not burdened militarily and morally by occupation and insurgency, and not divided by a growing religious demographic of which some don't even recognize the state, won't serve in the army or even work for their own upkeep, but monopolize family courts and insist on strict sabbath rules, gender segregation and female modesty to the point you can't show ads with women in them and "improperly" dressed ones will be harrassed in the streets of certain quarters. It's again not so different from the wish for the "good old" America by the American Right, and I suspect like all the people wishing back the "good old times" in the face of developments and excesses in the modern world their hopes are gonna be disappointed. Edited April 3, 2023 by BansheeOne
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