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The tv series was great and darkly funny but I from reading up on it a bit I got the impression that Paddy Mayne was stereotyped as the standard drunken violent Irishman who liked poetry, and Stirling comes out as a bit less impressive in real life. Is the actual book the tv show was based on the best account of it all?

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Some characters were (like Blair Maine) really fiery persons in real life too. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paddy_Mayne

While on tour in South Africa with the Lions in 1938, Mayne's rambunctious nature came to the fore, smashing up colleagues' hotel rooms, temporarily freeing a convict he had befriended and who was working on the construction of the Ellis Park Stadium and also sneaking off from a formal dinner to go antelope hunting.[8]

Keyes' diary makes it clear that Mayne was brought before the divisional commander, Brigadier Rodwell, on 23 June, for assaulting Napier, the second-in-command of his battalion. Mayne had a grudge against Napier, who had not taken part in the Litani raid, and who, according to a serving member of 11 Commando, had shot Mayne's pet dog while Mayne had been away. Mayne was attached to his pet, and was furious about this.[13] 

Keyes' diary records that, on the evening of 21 June, after drinking heavily in the mess, Mayne waited by Napier's tent and assaulted him when he returned. Keyes also records in his diary that Mayne was dismissed from 11 Commando the following day, 23 June, but does not say that he was arrested.[14]

Thus, series actually does downplay their antics...and fiery antisocial characters...

Edited by Sardaukar
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I got the book and it was excellent.  It hammered some of the myths of the SAS.  I highly recommend it.   Rogue Heroes: Ben Macintyre.  Excellent read.  Paddy Mayne was a very complex character who was misunderstood.  He did have a drinking problem....

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8 hours ago, Sardaukar said:

Some characters were (like Blair Maine) really fiery persons in real life too. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paddy_Mayne

While on tour in South Africa with the Lions in 1938, Mayne's rambunctious nature came to the fore, smashing up colleagues' hotel rooms, temporarily freeing a convict he had befriended and who was working on the construction of the Ellis Park Stadium and also sneaking off from a formal dinner to go antelope hunting.[8]

Keyes' diary makes it clear that Mayne was brought before the divisional commander, Brigadier Rodwell, on 23 June, for assaulting Napier, the second-in-command of his battalion. Mayne had a grudge against Napier, who had not taken part in the Litani raid, and who, according to a serving member of 11 Commando, had shot Mayne's pet dog while Mayne had been away. Mayne was attached to his pet, and was furious about this.[13] 

Keyes' diary records that, on the evening of 21 June, after drinking heavily in the mess, Mayne waited by Napier's tent and assaulted him when he returned. Keyes also records in his diary that Mayne was dismissed from 11 Commando the following day, 23 June, but does not say that he was arrested.[14]

Thus, series actually does downplay their antics...and fiery antisocial characters...

Keyes it will be remembered, died whilst assault Rommels headquarters in an attempt to assassinate him. It failed because Rommel wasnt there, but suffice to say he was favourably impressed by British SF in North Africa, to the point of saving at least one captured on the Normandy beaches who would otherwise have been murdered by the SS.

Keyes got a VC posthumously.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geoffrey_Keyes_(VC)

Mayne arguably deserved a VC several times over. But he was to some serious extent nuts, and probably had a deathwish. I read a story several years ago, and im damned if I can find a reference to it now, it was alleged a 16 year old member of Irgun died in his custody when he was in Palestine after the war. Ive no idea if the allegation had foundation, and it irks me I cant cite it. Whether that had some bearing or not on his not receiving the VC, ive no idea. I suspect its more likely rumours of his homosexuality probably had more to do with it. The SAS had a fairly open minded attitude to that kind of thing, there was another who was a lot more open about it, and nobody held it against him. I think it was just enough that you were good at killing Germans.

If anyone wants an overview on the SAS, the best overall history I found was 'Who Dares Wins' by Tony Geraghty, who at least got the story up to 1992. The downside is that there was comparatively little known about WW2 SAS actions, compared to the postwar years.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Who-Dares-Wins-Services-1950-1992/dp/0349114870

Ghost Force by Ken Connor (whom I think may have been at Princes Gate) was also pretty good.

Edited by Stuart Galbraith
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On 2/24/2023 at 5:14 PM, Sardaukar said:

Some characters were (like Blair Maine) really fiery persons in real life too. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paddy_Mayne

While on tour in South Africa with the Lions in 1938, Mayne's rambunctious nature came to the fore, smashing up colleagues' hotel rooms, temporarily freeing a convict he had befriended and who was working on the construction of the Ellis Park Stadium and also sneaking off from a formal dinner to go antelope hunting.[8]

Keyes' diary makes it clear that Mayne was brought before the divisional commander, Brigadier Rodwell, on 23 June, for assaulting Napier, the second-in-command of his battalion. Mayne had a grudge against Napier, who had not taken part in the Litani raid, and who, according to a serving member of 11 Commando, had shot Mayne's pet dog while Mayne had been away. Mayne was attached to his pet, and was furious about this.[13] 

Keyes' diary records that, on the evening of 21 June, after drinking heavily in the mess, Mayne waited by Napier's tent and assaulted him when he returned. Keyes also records in his diary that Mayne was dismissed from 11 Commando the following day, 23 June, but does not say that he was arrested.[14]

Thus, series actually does downplay their antics...and fiery antisocial characters...

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1 hour ago, Angrybk said:

The other factor is that they didn’t do anything that impressive in the war. They got the vast majority of their guys killed by parachuting into a stand storm and the survivors were picked up by the vastly more competent LRDG. 

I think thats unfair. Yes, the first raid was a debacle (as bad as it was portrayed in the series), but the SAS had planned the pickup. They were quick to realise that vehicles were the way to go, and they stuck with it, and turned it into a vastly successful way of destroying enemy aircraft on the ground.

When you realise quite how much of the Luftwaffe was gutted in North Africa and over Italy, you begin to think the SAS to a very large extent was responsible for turning the air war in North Africa around. Which eventually had huge consequences for Germany. Ive seen photos of huge scrapyards of wrecked Luftwaffe aircraft, its not an exaggeration.

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Re Keyes. Reminds me of the dramatization of Evelyn Waugh's 'Sword of Honour' series, where some of the main characters embark on spectacularly unsuccessful Commando raids, and are then lauded to the high heavens for them. You wonder if Waugh had some familiarity with Keyes death, and SAS operations in that period.

 

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On 2/25/2023 at 9:49 AM, Stuart Galbraith said:

This will never cease to puzzle me. If there's one instance that shows that the level of the decoration depended on how the action was written up, this is it.

Needless to say that getting a VC out of this sh*tshow didn't harm Laycock, who funnily was the man who wrote this up, and bigged himself up not a little bit in doing so. He had also previously oversold Keyes' in the citation for the action at the Litani River (initially recommended D.S.O. and then downgraded to M.C.).

Also fascinating to note the recommendation came from General Cunningham, who had been sacked at that stage, and Auchinleck didn't sign it, but it was only stamped with his name and position. Compare Keye's WO373 form to Philip Gardner's VC a few days later, with signed witness names, signed by Auchinleck and Ritchie. I never looked at the Keyes' VC too closely, but just looking at the WO373 forms makes me think that there were some shenanigans going on here.

All the best

Andreas

Edited by Andreas
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On 2/25/2023 at 9:49 AM, Stuart Galbraith said:

But he was to some serious extent nuts, and probably had a deathwish.

Arguably both helpful attributes in getting a VC.

All the best

Andreas

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11 hours ago, Angrybk said:

The other factor is that they didn’t do anything that impressive in the war. They got the vast majority of their guys killed by parachuting into a stand storm and the survivors were picked up by the vastly more competent LRDG. 

Err, what? The raids on the airfields were pure SAS, with the LRDG just providing the mobility. I would agree that the hero worship of them is over the top (as are the claimed numbers of destroyed planes), but that's a very long way from 'didn’t do anything that impressive in the war.'.

All the best

Andreas

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