urbanoid Posted April 14, 2023 Posted April 14, 2023 (edited) 12 minutes ago, DKTanker said: The ones he would never have had. There's quite a lot of GOP voters who support abortion rights. Supporting a party doesn't mean you support everything about it. https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2022/06/13/about-six-in-ten-americans-say-abortion-should-be-legal-in-all-or-most-cases-2/ft_2022-06-13_abortion_03/ https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2022/06/17/a-closer-look-at-republicans-who-favor-legal-abortion-and-democrats-who-oppose-it/ Edited April 14, 2023 by urbanoid
DKTanker Posted April 14, 2023 Posted April 14, 2023 (edited) 25 minutes ago, urbanoid said: There's quite a lot of GOP voters who support abortion rights. Supporting a party doesn't mean you support everything about it. Indeed. There will always be a portion of society that embraces infanticide, sometimes that portion is larger, sometimes it is smaller. So what to do? Well, society could simply accept infanticide as a legal norm all the way through natural birth and beyond, or society could ban it in its entirety from the moment of conception. There is a third choice, it won't placate the extremes, but until somebody comes up with a better compromise the beginning of cardiac activity is as good a point as any that has been offered. If nothing else it is definitional. For those GOP voters, or any other voters for that matter, that have a better idea, they are free to be adults about it and offer up their idea to debate. Edited April 14, 2023 by DKTanker
urbanoid Posted April 14, 2023 Posted April 14, 2023 24 minutes ago, DKTanker said: Indeed. There will always be a portion of society that embraces infanticide, sometimes that portion is larger, sometimes it is smaller. So what to do? Well, society could simply accept infanticide as a legal norm all the way through natural birth and beyond, or society could ban it in its entirety from the moment of conception. There is a third choice, it won't placate the extremes, but until somebody comes up with a better compromise the beginning of cardiac activity is as good a point as any that has been offered. If nothing else it is definitional. For those GOP voters, or any other voters for that matter, that have a better idea, they are free to be adults about it and offer up their idea to debate. Given how a lot of US elections are extremely close and a percent here or there may tip the scale and given how statistically it's mostly minorities/liberals (a.k.a 'statistically not-GOP voters') aborting it may be hurtful to the Republicans in both short and long term. And while I'm not saying to legalize 'until birth and beyond' and personally find the very practice rather distasteful, it would be a pragmatic thing to do not to rock the boat... too much.
Josh Posted April 14, 2023 Posted April 14, 2023 2 hours ago, urbanoid said: It's a rather idiotic hill to die on for the Republicans. If it works as they think it will, it will statistically mean more minorities and minorities statistically don't vote for them. It is a moral stand for a lot of the party base, especially the evangelicals. There isn't a law too strict for them, which is understandable if you start with the presumption that the entire process is always a murder. But it risks a lot at the national level for the GOP in general and Desantis in particular to impose these kinds of restrictions. The court cases against the FDA are also huge risk items; it basically makes the case that the GOP is coming for you no matter what state you live in for the Democrats.
Josh Posted April 14, 2023 Posted April 14, 2023 1 hour ago, DKTanker said: The ones he would never have had. Then I guess he was always going to have a very uphill battle either way. If he loses the suburbs and women by percentages that are Trump like, he isn't a good substitute for Trump from an electability point of view. Though I would tend to agree with you - his anti woke politics, particularly the "don't say gay" law he wants to extend to high school, probably already made him about as fringe as Trump.
Josh Posted April 14, 2023 Posted April 14, 2023 (edited) 1 hour ago, DKTanker said: Doesn't seem to hurt Leftists in the US to the same degree. Perhaps that's because they simply don't let it bother them and get defensive about it. "What, you don't like my decision, are you a racist, fascist, homophobe...?" The US public education system being a Leftist indoctrination system for the last 45 years might play into it as well. I would argue the gap between the far left and center in the Democratic party aren't as far apart as the far right and Republican moderates are, post MAGA. Edited April 14, 2023 by Josh
Josh Posted April 14, 2023 Posted April 14, 2023 (edited) 1 hour ago, DKTanker said: Indeed. There will always be a portion of society that embraces infanticide, sometimes that portion is larger, sometimes it is smaller. So what to do? Well, society could simply accept infanticide as a legal norm all the way through natural birth and beyond, or society could ban it in its entirety from the moment of conception. There is a third choice, it won't placate the extremes, but until somebody comes up with a better compromise the beginning of cardiac activity is as good a point as any that has been offered. If nothing else it is definitional. For those GOP voters, or any other voters for that matter, that have a better idea, they are free to be adults about it and offer up their idea to debate. It would also be fair to point out Democrats and swing voters have very mixed and nuanced feelings about the issue as well. I suspect you'd find very few dems who support an "until birth" policy, outside the life of the mother being in danger. Most polling seems to pin the generally acceptable rule as first trimester-ish being a fair option, with perhaps outs for medical complications or fetus viability there after. But the main point is that most of the country is thinking about a "when" to the question where as for a significant part of the GOP it is an "if". If you look at when the procedure occurs by week, the overwhelming majority are far earlier. Forgive the motherjones link, I don't read it but it was the first chart I could find with relevant data: https://www.motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2019/04/raw-data-abortions-by-week-of-pregnancy/ Edited April 14, 2023 by Josh
DB Posted April 14, 2023 Posted April 14, 2023 28 minutes ago, Josh said: I would argue the gap between the far left and center in the Democratic party aren't as far apart as the far right and Republican moderates are, post MAGA. Not sure whether you think that's a good or bad thing. From a "the middle will tolerate the far left's lunacy" then it's a "good" thing for votes, but if you're a moderate then that's a terrible thing...
Angrybk Posted April 14, 2023 Posted April 14, 2023 IMHO Biden winning the nomination proved that most Democrats support normie politicians over outliers (although it was a near-run thing until Black Democrats figured out that they were gonna lose the election unless they nominated a normie and rallied behind Biden). Biden is basically the Jeb(!) of the Democrat Party -- much less far-left compared to Sanders, Warren, etc.
rmgill Posted April 14, 2023 Posted April 14, 2023 2 hours ago, DKTanker said: There is a third choice, it won't placate the extremes, but until somebody comes up with a better compromise the beginning of cardiac activity is as good a point as any that has been offered. If nothing else it is definitional. It's also measurable and quantifiable.
17thfabn Posted April 14, 2023 Posted April 14, 2023 6 hours ago, Josh said: Desantis signs the 6 week abortion ban into law. I’m surprised he didn’t try to get the legislation to shelve the law behind the scenes, because such a restrictive law is going to paint a target on him in a general election. That’s basically several percentage points of women voters he will never get back. There is the possibility he is a true believer. I don't know how Catholic DeSantis is. I've seen several references to the fundamentalists being the ones pushing the anti abortion movement. I know that locally the movement is run by devout Roman Catholics.
Josh Posted April 14, 2023 Posted April 14, 2023 5 hours ago, DB said: Not sure whether you think that's a good or bad thing. From a "the middle will tolerate the far left's lunacy" then it's a "good" thing for votes, but if you're a moderate then that's a terrible thing... I’m ambivalent. It’s just an observation. I would say that the GOP is having a much bigger split than it has in my lifetime though, and that its most fringe elements are weirder than the left. There no left wing equivalent of QAnon, at least not in terms of number of believers.
Josh Posted April 14, 2023 Posted April 14, 2023 (edited) 2 hours ago, 17thfabn said: There is the possibility he is a true believer. I don't know how Catholic DeSantis is. I honesty never considered that. His positions seem so fluid I never interpreted any of them to be his underlying character. He went from Reagan Republican to MAGA at the drop of a hat, though abortion obviously overlaps those two so perhaps this is in fact a core belief that extends beyond political posturing. Edited April 14, 2023 by Josh
DB Posted April 14, 2023 Posted April 14, 2023 3 hours ago, 17thfabn said: There is the possibility he is a true believer. I don't know how Catholic DeSantis is. I've seen several references to the fundamentalists being the ones pushing the anti abortion movement. I know that locally the movement is run by devout Roman Catholics. The leftists would say po-tay-to, potato.
Angrybk Posted April 14, 2023 Posted April 14, 2023 8 hours ago, rmgill said: It's also measurable and quantifiable. I think most people would like _some_ kind of official definition as to when life starts and then enforce it.
DKTanker Posted April 14, 2023 Posted April 14, 2023 10 hours ago, Josh said: It is a moral stand for a lot of the party base, especially the evangelicals. There isn't a law too strict for them, which is understandable if you start with the presumption that the entire process is always a murder. But it risks a lot at the national level for the GOP in general and Desantis in particular to impose these kinds of restrictions. The court cases against the FDA are also huge risk items; it basically makes the case that the GOP is coming for you no matter what state you live in for the Democrats. It is also a moral stand for Leftists who have an insatiable appetite for killing babies. They've even gone so far as to righteously proclaim their happiness for having snuffed the life from babies. Then there are the really twisted nuts who lament never having been pregnant so never having the chance to snuff the life within.
DKTanker Posted April 15, 2023 Posted April 15, 2023 5 hours ago, 17thfabn said: There is the possibility he is a true believer. I don't know how Catholic DeSantis is. I've seen several references to the fundamentalists being the ones pushing the anti abortion movement. I know that locally the movement is run by devout Roman Catholics. Twenty states have enacted the heartbeat law, such as what DeSantis just signed. Such laws still allow for snuffing the life of early stage humans. Given that, there really isn't an anti-abortion movement as much as there is a movement to slow the unfettered and insatiable appetite for killing babies. As I stated earlier, there are two extremes, life begins at conception and there should be no exception. The other extreme is that a glob of cells within a birthing person and even just momentarily removed, is not a human life and can be readily disposed of as so much medical waste. In between those extremes lies a compromise, if anybody can define such a compromise, other than first cardiac activity, I'm sure we'd all like to hear it. Otherwise, people are just stomping their feet for their own self-aggrandizement.
Josh Posted April 15, 2023 Posted April 15, 2023 1 hour ago, DKTanker said: It is also a moral stand for Leftists who have an insatiable appetite for killing babies. They've even gone so far as to righteously proclaim their happiness for having snuffed the life from babies. Then there are the really twisted nuts who lament never having been pregnant so never having the chance to snuff the life within. This is a thing you actually believe?
rmgill Posted April 15, 2023 Posted April 15, 2023 1 hour ago, Josh said: This is a thing you actually believe? https://time.com/4608364/lena-dunham-wish-abortion-comments/ Lena Dunham Said She Wishes She Had an Abortion https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=886309275138038 https://www.instagram.com/ShoutYourAbortion/
Burncycle360 Posted April 15, 2023 Posted April 15, 2023 Trump is teasing about national reciprocity for concealed carriers if he gets elected. I doubt it seriously but if I thought he would actually make it happen I might actually hold my nose and vote for him. My guess is if Desantis doesn't also make the promise that alone will pull a ton of votes away from him
Josh Posted April 15, 2023 Posted April 15, 2023 4 hours ago, rmgill said: https://time.com/4608364/lena-dunham-wish-abortion-comments/ Lena Dunham Said She Wishes She Had an Abortion https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=886309275138038 https://www.instagram.com/ShoutYourAbortion/ Fair enough, I've no doubt that there is a fringe group that feels that way online, the same way QAnon thinks the world is run by Democrat pedophiles. But that is hardly a majority or mainstream opinion on the part of democrats or swing voters, where as a zero tolerance for abortion is a strong plurality, if not majority, for the GOP. Polling indicates most Democrats and swing voters don't back unlimited abortion, myself included, and if the GOP couched their limits in more reasonable terms they could tap that disconnect. But that is an unacceptable position for the GOP base.
Josh Posted April 15, 2023 Posted April 15, 2023 3 hours ago, Burncycle360 said: Trump is teasing about national reciprocity for concealed carriers if he gets elected. I doubt it seriously but if I thought he would actually make it happen I might actually hold my nose and vote for him. My guess is if Desantis doesn't also make the promise that alone will pull a ton of votes away from him Trump couldn't do that with just executive orders, but I'm sure it played well at the NRA meet up.
Stuart Galbraith Posted April 15, 2023 Posted April 15, 2023 14 hours ago, 17thfabn said: There is the possibility he is a true believer. I don't know how Catholic DeSantis is. I've seen several references to the fundamentalists being the ones pushing the anti abortion movement. I know that locally the movement is run by devout Roman Catholics. It certainly seems to have started with Catholics, before evangelicals and fundamentalists picked it up and ran with it. Even Reagan in 1983 was making warm noises about it, in front of an evangelical audience. Same day he made the Evil Empire speech, which was an interesting conflation. https://www.fatherly.com/news/history-anti-abortion-interview-dr-jennifer-holland https://voicesofdemocracy.umd.edu/ronald-reagan-evil-empire-speech-8-march-1983/ I was listening to an interesting podcast about a year or so back, where the son of the guy who helped pioneer the movement (I have a nagging feeling they may have had a role in funding Silent Scream) said he regretted ever getting involved in the Anti Abortion movement, and regretted the pain that it had caused.
Ivanhoe Posted April 15, 2023 Posted April 15, 2023 7 hours ago, Josh said: Trump couldn't do that with just executive orders, but I'm sure it played well at the NRA meet up. Obama and Biden have done more with executive orders, at some point Rs are going to do likewise.
rmgill Posted April 15, 2023 Posted April 15, 2023 9 hours ago, Josh said: Fair enough, I've no doubt that there is a fringe group that feels that way online, You think this is fringe? You weren't aware that major figures in the pro-abortion movement were claiming that you weren't a woman until you'd had your first abortion were you? But now you dismiss it as "fringe"? Lena Dunham isn't fringe. She was hailed by the DNC over a number of issues. She's as fringe as the weft of cloth that is exposed at the edge but runs through the entire course of the fabric. 9 hours ago, Josh said: the same way QAnon thinks the world is run by Democrat pedophiles. All run by? No. Has some who are protected and controlled? Sure. Where's Epstein's client list? 9 hours ago, Josh said: But that is hardly a majority or mainstream opinion on the part of democrats or swing voters, WRONG. Just focusing on Lena Dunham some more. She was ranked as one of Time's most influential 100 people. That doesn't count as fringe. https://time100.time.com/2013/04/18/time-100/slide/lena-dunham/ 9 hours ago, Josh said: where as a zero tolerance for abortion is a strong plurality, if not majority, for the GOP. Polling indicates most Democrats and swing voters don't back unlimited abortion, myself included, and if the GOP couched their limits in more reasonable terms they could tap that disconnect. The left has demanded unlimited abortion. That means. Abortion on demand. No limits on time frame. No requirement for a medical exam to determine fetal development. They frame the medical exam as state required rape. Why do you think they're HYPER upset about A limit placing it somewhere along the 10-25 week time frame? I've had this conversation with numerous folks in my friends circle when they were still willing to talk to me about it. 9 hours ago, Josh said: But that is an unacceptable position for the GOP base. With as many people completely unaware of the extent of what the left wants, including folks like yourself, how are we supposed to take your view as reasonable if you can't even acknowledge the centroid of the DNC party goal? The Governor or Virginia proposed a bill that would allow post birth "abortion". Is he fringe?
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