T-14 Armata VS M1 Abrams - Deadliest Tank Battles, Who Is Better?

[KV7]

4 hours ago, Walter_Sobchak said:

Yes, but the DRDO is amazing at coming up with unintentionally hilarious product names.  https://www.drdo.gov.in/120-mm-penetration-cum-blast-pcb-and-thermobaric-tb-ammunition-mbt-arjun

 

 

Is penetration cum blast a new term for APHE ?

[KV7]

I see it is .

The delay here seems too long for use vs smaller structures. Presumably it is adjustable though.

 

Edited February 24, 2023 by KV7

[crazyinsane105]

On 2/23/2023 at 6:26 AM, Mighty_Zuk said:

The DRDO is an incompetent body. I could say many mistakes were made specifically regarding the Arjun, but this is an ill institution that will mess up every project. 

And it doesn't matter how they source their weapons. If their local management of their armament is incompetent, the results will be accordingly.

India could quite easily obtain rights to either locally produce foreign MBTs as they are, or modify them. From an Indian perspective, I assume in their list of available options, the T-14 would be at the very bottom.

What other MBT's can India procure for its needs from Western countries? They face the same weight limitations that Ukraine is facing, except India's infrastructure is a hell of a lot worse. Which is why something like Arjun, even if it was a great tank (which it isn't), would be useless in most theaters of combat in the Indian subcontinent. Not to mention that they have massive amounts of 125 mm, which isn't something they can just ignore either. 

[Mighty_Zuk]

The K2 is a good candidate. 125mm stocks aren't a problem because they're not going to switch from T tanks overnight.

[R011]

34 minutes ago, Mighty_Zuk said:

The K2 is a good candidate. 125mm stocks aren't a problem because they're not going to switch from T tanks overnight.

I wonder how difficult it would be for the Koreans to put a 125 mm in a K2 with the appropriate changes to the fire control systems?  If they do tried to do it, there's a good chance it could work while if India tried . . .

[ChuckFan4]

The 125mm will need to be adopted for either manual loading, or some totally new auto loader that doesn’t use a carousal configuration, or the K-2 will need to be butchered to accommodate a carousal loader. 

[ChuckFan4]

On 2/23/2023 at 2:27 AM, Chazzer said:

Didn't the Idain's try that with the Arjun?.

Lets be honest, the Arjun is not an exemplar of good tank design, considering the amount of time they spent on it's development.

It was a terrible project from the inception.    Yet mediocre the result may be, it is still impressive what they accomplished given where they started.    Starting from almost no experience building tanks and a weak and fractured industrial base, they designed and developed a wholly new, western style g3 tank with a host of up to date features in one step.     In this sense it is more than what the Chinese had achieved with more experience and a bigger industrial base.   The latest Chinese MBTs are still clearly evolutionary descendants of the T-72.

Edited February 26, 2023 by ChuckFan4

[ChuckFan4]

3 minutes ago, ChuckFan4 said:

 

 

Edited February 26, 2023 by ChuckFan4
Delete duplicate

[alanch90]

On 2/7/2023 at 4:24 PM, Mighty_Zuk said:

T-14 doesn't even exist, nor will it exist. Project was cancelled.

I think there's no reason to anticipate any organized, state-funded program until the 2030's. If you're looking for a match-up, the Abrams are only likely to keep facing Soviet tanks in the near future, up to T-90M.

If you're looking for a modern, non-western MBT, the PLA is a better option.

There are T-14 in production at UVZ as we speak. This was from about 2 weeks ago:

 

The project proceeded very slowly since 2015, which is the pattern for evey blank sheet design AFV post Cold War. And now its even more delayed because of the war, but it might show up in a limited fashion in Ukraine for a photo op.

[Stefan Kotsch]

1 hour ago, alanch90 said:

This was from about 2 weeks ago.

Pretty old photos.  Forget it.

[alanch90]

55 minutes ago, Stefan Kotsch said:

Pretty old photos.  Forget it.

They are not. I know so because i took the screen shot myself. I spotted those in this video, published 2 weeks ago. 
 

 

[DB]

Oh boy.

[Mighty_Zuk]

9 hours ago, alanch90 said:

There are T-14 in production at UVZ as we speak. This was from about 2 weeks ago:

 

The project proceeded very slowly since 2015, which is the pattern for evey blank sheet design AFV post Cold War. And now its even more delayed because of the war, but it might show up in a limited fashion in Ukraine for a photo op.

The existence of said shots in the video does not mean they were filmed when the rest of the video was filmed. And also, even if they were up to date, there's no reason to believe they indicate production is ongoing.

An artisanal production line of T-14 will be of little use for UVZ, therefore untouched, until the RU gov can fund a new line in its place for new T-62/72/80/90.

[alanch90]

6 hours ago, Mighty_Zuk said:

The existence of said shots in the video does not mean they were filmed when the rest of the video was filmed. And also, even if they were up to date, there's no reason to believe they indicate production is ongoing.

An artisanal production line of T-14 will be of little use for UVZ, therefore untouched, until the RU gov can fund a new line in its place for new T-62/72/80/90.

That may be true but my point is that the program is very much alive although of lower priority while the war lasts. I´m sure that combat experience will give more incentive to the authorities to accelerate the program. Like what happened with Merkava IV after the 2006 Lebanon war.

[alanch90]

So, following yesterday´s topic on the "not-cancellation" of T-14, just now we see a FULL COMPANY (10) T-14 of serial production plus a T-16 ARV transported by train. With tarps and other items that aren´t usually featured for parades. Regardless of what they will do with these before or after the Victory Day parade, it confirms that T-14 production has been ongoing even during the war. Now, the total serial T-14 count can be up to 14 tanks.

 

 

 

 

Edited March 1, 2023 by alanch90

[bojan]

Serial production or old ones prepared for a parade?

[alanch90]

9 minutes ago, bojan said:

Serial production or old ones prepared for a parade?

These are of serial production. You can easily tell them apart just by looking at the front hull armor (among other stuff, like the wheels or the placement of coaxial MG). 

[Mighty_Zuk]

There is no indication of when they were produced. Too early to draw conclusions. 

To clarify, a proper program of record for acquisition of MBTs must result in at least a critical amount entering service. Sending tiny batches to Ukraine is not indicative of the existence of such a program, as there is much data that can be collected for the sake of future programs. 

The only argument that still remains, AFAIK, for the persistence of the Armata program, is that it would be highly illogical to pursue it before the war ends.

[Bichri001]

Why are currently people on social media snarkily commenting if Russians fixed the T-14's wobble problem. They are referencing to this video: https://twitter.com/warmonitors/status/1623764030992130049 . 

The only thing I see is the barrel readjusting for the autoloading procedure after the shot. I think that one can even hear the autolader noises at the end of the video. Or have I gone mad?

[Mighty_Zuk]

26 minutes ago, Bichri001 said:

Why are currently people on social media snarkily commenting if Russians fixed the T-14's wobble problem. They are referencing to this video: https://twitter.com/warmonitors/status/1623764030992130049 . 

The only thing I see is the barrel readjusting for the autoloading procedure after the shot. I think that one can even hear the autolader noises at the end of the video. Or have I gone mad?

The barrel is not moving in sync with the hull, and it also wobbles relative to its base, meaning this is indeed an issue and not a feature.

[ChuckFan4]

Series production of 14 tanks?    Gone are the days when quantity had a quality of its own. 

[bojan]

On 2/26/2023 at 5:35 PM, ChuckFan4 said:

It was a terrible project from the inception.    Yet mediocre the result may be, it is still impressive what they accomplished given where they started.    Starting from almost no experience building tanks and a weak and fractured industrial base, they designed and developed a wholly new, western style g3 tank with a host of up to date features in one step.     In this sense it is more than what the Chinese had achieved with more experience and a bigger industrial base.   The latest Chinese MBTs are still clearly evolutionary descendants of the T-72.

Arjun is hardly "G3" (whatever that is supposed to be...) It is heavily based on Vijayanta (Vickers export tank from '60s... T-55 level of tech) and there is a whole host of issues about it.

Basically they bit more than they could chew w/o adequate technological base or even clear direction where they wanted to go and got a total lemon. FCS was good initially, but became dated (and was not their development anyway), gun is junk using totally unique ammo with very poor performances for it's caliber, armor is totally non-impressive (steel/textolite combo like pre T-72B/T-80U Soviet tanks), there is no separation of ammo from the crew... Basically PIPed '60s tank (that was not all that great even for '60s) cosplaying Leopard 2.

Chinese ones have a lot of issues, often combining worst elements from USSR and "west" designs (turret geometry and huge engine compartment being worst offender) , but Type 99 is clearly more advanced than a steaming pile of excrement that is Arjun.

[bojan]

On 2/26/2023 at 5:29 PM, ChuckFan4 said:

The 125mm will need to be adopted for either manual loading, or some totally new auto loader that doesn’t use a carousal configuration, or the K-2 will need to be butchered to accommodate a carousal loader. 

K2 has bustle autoloader and 125mm can be used with it.

[bojan]

16 minutes ago, ChuckFan4 said:

Series production of 14 tanks?    Gone are the days when quantity had a quality of its own. 

"Zero" series (first batch made using real serial production vs manually assambled prototypes) are often relatively small sized, so that in case of overlooked defects it can be quickly fixed w/o significant production of "flawed" vehicles or using "flawed" techniques Back in Cold war days "zero series" were most often about Bn sized, but today Co sized ones are more common.

But I am still skeptical that T-14 is in production ATM.

[alanch90]

2 hours ago, Mighty_Zuk said:

There is no indication of when they were produced. Too early to draw conclusions. 

To clarify, a proper program of record for acquisition of MBTs must result in at least a critical amount entering service. Sending tiny batches to Ukraine is not indicative of the existence of such a program, as there is much data that can be collected for the sake of future programs. 

The only argument that still remains, AFAIK, for the persistence of the Armata program, is that it would be highly illogical to pursue it before the war ends.

Yes, there are indications of when they were produced. Anytime between December 2021 and now. More speciffically, after May last year. If these 10 would have been ready then, we would have seen them on the Victory Day parade.

 

1 hour ago, ChuckFan4 said:

Series production of 14 tanks?    Gone are the days when quantity had a quality of its own. 

So far there is only 1 contract signed over Armatas, for a total of 132 Armata-based vehicles. What we are seeing now are the first finished samples of that. The program can be defined as having entered the LRIP phase and it has a long way still until it achieves initial operational capability. But certainly not "dead" or "cancelled" as was widely reported on western media many times since 2015.

Edited March 1, 2023 by alanch90