sidom Posted February 4, 2023 Posted February 4, 2023 Tanks are once again the main indicator of the military strength of an army, on all battlefields. in this video we will discuss the 2 strongest tanks whose abilities are beyond doubt on the battlefield. The Russian T-14 Armata tank is receiving a lot of attention from around the world, with some platform advocates and reports claiming it may be the best tank in the world. but it is unknown or at least full of mystery unless there is a direct battle involving a T-14 Armata and an Abrams tank, which no one seems to want. However, there are some interesting points of comparison that are worth discussing the two tanks. The T-14 is a fourth-generation Russian main battle tank vehicle. This tank was designed by the Ural Design Bureau of Transport Machine-Building, and made by Uralvagonzavod and used by the Russian Army. Meanwhile, is the third generation of main battle tanks produced by the United States. His name is taken from General Creighton Abrams, Chief of Staff and Commander of the United States Armed Forces in Vietnam from 1968 to 1972. Both of these tanks have their advantages in terms of ARMAMENT, MOBILITY, and PROTECTION. https://youtu.be/5X6cRtleQv0
Mike1158 Posted February 5, 2023 Posted February 5, 2023 (edited) Tuesday. Edited February 22, 2023 by Mike1158
Wobbly Head Posted February 6, 2023 Posted February 6, 2023 It will probably come down to what has decided tank combat since tanks were on the battlefield. Who fired the first aimed shot, Which is more to do with crew training and tactics than technology. With the Russian performance in Ukraine I would probably give the edge to the Abrams over the T14 just for the crew training.
ChuckFan4 Posted February 6, 2023 Posted February 6, 2023 (edited) T-14 looks better, but i think russia has much more serious problems with every stage of the process from detailed engineering design, prototyping, realistic testing, quality of manufacturing supply chain, quality of manufacturing at the arsenals, acceptance testing, tactical doctrine, training, deployment, logistic support, and tactical leadership. So i think in a real conflict T-14 will perform much more poorly. Edited February 6, 2023 by ChuckFan4
Mighty_Zuk Posted February 7, 2023 Posted February 7, 2023 T-14 doesn't even exist, nor will it exist. Project was cancelled. I think there's no reason to anticipate any organized, state-funded program until the 2030's. If you're looking for a match-up, the Abrams are only likely to keep facing Soviet tanks in the near future, up to T-90M. If you're looking for a modern, non-western MBT, the PLA is a better option.
ChuckFan4 Posted February 7, 2023 Posted February 7, 2023 (edited) Currently PLA only deploy MBT designs that are ultimately still based on the T-72. Unless they have a classified combat fit that has not been seen in public, ZTZ-99M’s passive protection looks more sketchy than on the latest T-72B3. For example there seems to be only flimsy sheet metal skirt to protect against hits to the gap between the sponson and top of the road wheels, Edited February 7, 2023 by ChuckFan4
Mighty_Zuk Posted February 7, 2023 Posted February 7, 2023 2 hours ago, ChuckFan4 said: Currently PLA only deploy MBT designs that are ultimately still based on the T-72. Unless they have a classified combat fit that has not been seen in public, ZTZ-99M’s passive protection looks more sketchy than on the latest T-72B3. For example there seems to be only flimsy sheet metal skirt to protect against hits to the gap between the sponson and top of the road wheels, I'm not saying China produces anything on par with western MBTs. But given time, it's the only contender that can try and catch up for the forseeable future.
Walter_Sobchak Posted February 8, 2023 Posted February 8, 2023 At this point, the T-14 looks more like a publicity stunt than an operational vehicle. It's absence in Ukraine would seem to confirm this.
lucklucky Posted February 13, 2023 Posted February 13, 2023 Armata is dead, says: https://wavellroom.com/2023/02/10/armata-the-story-is-over/
Mighty_Zuk Posted February 13, 2023 Posted February 13, 2023 4 hours ago, lucklucky said: Armata is dead, says: https://wavellroom.com/2023/02/10/armata-the-story-is-over/ The reports came months ago, and this article is just a translation of a Russian article from December 2022.
Stuart Galbraith Posted February 13, 2023 Posted February 13, 2023 Im surprised, I thought they would get a Regiment into service. Now they arent even going to do that. Crimea really was a bit of a spectacular fuckup wasnt it? Just imagine what we would be dealing with right now if he hadnt done it.
lucklucky Posted February 13, 2023 Posted February 13, 2023 4 hours ago, Mighty_Zuk said: The reports came months ago, and this article is just a translation of a Russian article from December 2022. Thanks
crazyinsane105 Posted February 22, 2023 Posted February 22, 2023 On 2/13/2023 at 3:32 AM, Stuart Galbraith said: Im surprised, I thought they would get a Regiment into service. Now they arent even going to do that. Crimea really was a bit of a spectacular fuckup wasnt it? Just imagine what we would be dealing with right now if he hadnt done it. Are you suggesting that the ensuing sanctions made it difficult for Russia to produce large numbers of the T-14? I'm not entirely sure how accurate that is. The issue isn't the sanctions...the Russians from 2014 until 2022 had ways to get around them and still source a large amount of whatever they needed. Rather, the issue was probably a mix of corruption, poor planning, possibly even lack of funding (quite a bit went towards upgrading older T series tanks, and not enough was spent for the Armata). The only facility in Tagil which was supposed to end production of T-90s and start with Armata didn't seem to even get the proper tooling it needed for large scale production. I won't completely write off the Armata series of vehicles. India keeps signing large defense deals with Russia, and eventually I foresee them signing a huge one to replace their T-72s and BMPs with Armata based designs.
Mike1158 Posted February 22, 2023 Posted February 22, 2023 With the move to improve T series in Russia, not sure I can see that. India taking over, possibly what with their desire to produce their own and sell overseas for foreign currency.
On the way Posted February 22, 2023 Posted February 22, 2023 4 hours ago, crazyinsane105 said: Are you suggesting that the ensuing sanctions made it difficult for Russia to produce large numbers of the T-14? I'm not entirely sure how accurate that is. The issue isn't the sanctions...the Russians from 2014 until 2022 had ways to get around them and still source a large amount of whatever they needed. Rather, the issue was probably a mix of corruption, poor planning, possibly even lack of funding (quite a bit went towards upgrading older T series tanks, and not enough was spent for the Armata). The only facility in Tagil which was supposed to end production of T-90s and start with Armata didn't seem to even get the proper tooling it needed for large scale production. I won't completely write off the Armata series of vehicles. India keeps signing large defense deals with Russia, and eventually I foresee them signing a huge one to replace their T-72s and BMPs with Armata based designs. I don't think that is going to happen. Most of the large Russo-Indo arms deals are predicated on license production or assembly in India of the Russian weapons. e.g. MiG-21, T-72, AK-47, BMP-2, etc. These are weapons made for a simpler time. Once the Indians do a deep dive into the T-14 with its engine issues, etc. They are not going to touch it with a ten foot pole. And The Russians would probably not allow it to be license produced outside Russia.
Mighty_Zuk Posted February 22, 2023 Posted February 22, 2023 (edited) Technically the exportability of T-14 is higher than the potential for domestic production. For example, offer ToT to customer and full license, and work with local company to outsource parts Russia can't buy, like electronics. But any country that would be willing to do that has to be both wealthy enough, and shunned by all other arms producers, and that's an unlikely mix. I recently learned that Russian defense corporations receive long term contracts with fixed prices, forcing them to produce and sell at losses that gradually increase with inflation over the years. What then happens is when they're close to bankruptcy, they're bailed by the government. To avoid a balcony, company chiefs may want to cut those losses as much as possible, so as to not anger the government. This clearly incentivizes them, despite the strategic interest in overcoming sanctions (they fear for their future and lives, not the glory of Russia), to buy foreign parts whenever possible. When it comes to a tank, with a system of systems inside, each change of electronic part may create cascading effects. So it might be cheaper to actually buy the more expensive American item, than a Chinese variant that would force many changes elsewhere. That's just my bit of speculation. Don't take it too seriously if I got some things wrong. Edited February 22, 2023 by Mighty_Zuk
crazyinsane105 Posted February 22, 2023 Posted February 22, 2023 (edited) 13 hours ago, On the way said: I don't think that is going to happen. Most of the large Russo-Indo arms deals are predicated on license production or assembly in India of the Russian weapons. e.g. MiG-21, T-72, AK-47, BMP-2, etc. These are weapons made for a simpler time. Once the Indians do a deep dive into the T-14 with its engine issues, etc. They are not going to touch it with a ten foot pole. And The Russians would probably not allow it to be license produced outside Russia. Except India operates a lot of sophisticated Russian equipment which it produced with ToT… T-90, Sukhois, Brahmos. India is looking to collaboratively produce the S-400 as well, and India leases nuke subs from Russia. So to think they are going to walk away from the T-14 when in fact, their entire ground forces is composed solely of Russian or Soviet equipment…that seems very unlikely. You may want to investigate why India decided to dump the Sig 716 and blame the rifle for problems that originated due to decisions made by Indian military, and go in favor for building a factory to produce guns made by Kalashnikov. Things are really strange in that country when it comes to arms procurement Edited February 22, 2023 by crazyinsane105
crazyinsane105 Posted February 22, 2023 Posted February 22, 2023 13 hours ago, Mike1158 said: With the move to improve T series in Russia, not sure I can see that. India taking over, possibly what with their desire to produce their own and sell overseas for foreign currency. Make their own? Yes. Sell overseas? Fat chance. India will need to fulfill its own requirements first before selling overseas.
Mike1158 Posted February 22, 2023 Posted February 22, 2023 44 minutes ago, crazyinsane105 said: Make their own? Yes. Sell overseas? Fat chance. India will need to fulfill its own requirements first before selling overseas. Agreed but when that is done the export market opens up.
crazyinsane105 Posted February 23, 2023 Posted February 23, 2023 1 hour ago, Mike1158 said: Agreed but when that is done the export market opens up. India doesn’t have the capability to mass produce items in the quantities to export them. They have enough issues meeting demand for themselves. On top of that, it’s unlikely the Russians will even allow India the right to do it. The Brahmos missile was an exception because the development was mostly funded by India, and in the end it is a knock-off of a P-800, and won’t compete against Russian products. And even after over two decades, it is just being exported to two other countries Beyond that, Indian military products are looked at as a joke by most countries. If you think Russian equipment is of bad quality control, you haven’t seen Indian quality…or lack of.
Mike1158 Posted February 23, 2023 Posted February 23, 2023 Not saying they have any chance or even decent quality of kit but they have been more bullish over the last decade or so. We used Pakistani 9mm ammo back in the day when a logistics snafy meant we were short for qualifying etc. Double taps very common and made the Sterling a more dangerous tool.
Mighty_Zuk Posted February 23, 2023 Posted February 23, 2023 11 hours ago, crazyinsane105 said: So to think they are going to walk away from the T-14 when in fact, their entire ground forces is composed solely of Russian or Soviet equipment…that seems very unlikely. T-14's not ready in any of its components except the main armament, excluding an FCS. Its engine is far from ready, making the whole tank just not very feasible until it's all fixed. And many items like the APS are just big unknowns with high likelihood of very low TRL, seeing as Russia cannot even supply proper sensors and even dumbed down APS to its frontline units. What Russia can offer India is just the mechanical design of the hull and turret, exactly what manufacturers today say is the least valuable part of an AFV. Also, India is not under a global arms embargo. It has other options. It can buy tanks from elsewhere. It can also produce its own and contract major players to help it in all stages.
Chazzer Posted February 23, 2023 Posted February 23, 2023 11 minutes ago, Mighty_Zuk said: T-14's not ready in any of its components except the main armament, excluding an FCS. Its engine is far from ready, making the whole tank just not very feasible until it's all fixed. And many items like the APS are just big unknowns with high likelihood of very low TRL, seeing as Russia cannot even supply proper sensors and even dumbed down APS to its frontline units. What Russia can offer India is just the mechanical design of the hull and turret, exactly what manufacturers today say is the least valuable part of an AFV. Also, India is not under a global arms embargo. It has other options. It can buy tanks from elsewhere. It can also produce its own and contract major players to help it in all stages. Didn't the Idain's try that with the Arjun?. Lets be honest, the Arjun is not an exemplar of good tank design, considering the amount of time they spent on it's development.
Mighty_Zuk Posted February 23, 2023 Posted February 23, 2023 1 hour ago, Chazzer said: Didn't the Idain's try that with the Arjun?. Lets be honest, the Arjun is not an exemplar of good tank design, considering the amount of time they spent on it's development. The DRDO is an incompetent body. I could say many mistakes were made specifically regarding the Arjun, but this is an ill institution that will mess up every project. And it doesn't matter how they source their weapons. If their local management of their armament is incompetent, the results will be accordingly. India could quite easily obtain rights to either locally produce foreign MBTs as they are, or modify them. From an Indian perspective, I assume in their list of available options, the T-14 would be at the very bottom.
Walter_Sobchak Posted February 24, 2023 Posted February 24, 2023 Yes, but the DRDO is amazing at coming up with unintentionally hilarious product names. https://www.drdo.gov.in/120-mm-penetration-cum-blast-pcb-and-thermobaric-tb-ammunition-mbt-arjun
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