Turkish F-16 request in limbo

[urbanoid]

14 minutes ago, crazyinsane105 said:

It’s still a capable platform, and if the Turks decide to team up with the Russians on this, you’ll see it transform from something much more than vapor ware. 
 

My point is that we can continue to push away Turkey, but let’s not have a pikachu face when they bring life to Russian defense industries 

 Sure, in some 15-20 years.

[crazyinsane105]

1 hour ago, urbanoid said:

 Sure, in some 15-20 years.

How did you attain that time frame? 

[crazyinsane105]

1 hour ago, Dawes said:

Don't know how much of a factor cost would be to Turkey, but the F-16 logistic/training/support infrastructure has been in place for decades  and the Turks are very familiar with the aircraft.

Which is why the Turks prefer F-16s. But they won’t just sit around waiting for new Western aircraft for years on end either 

[Sardaukar]

8 minutes ago, crazyinsane105 said:

Which is why the Turks prefer F-16s. But they won’t just sit around waiting for new Western aircraft for years on end either 

I am pretty sure Turkish AF has followed "saga of Russian aircrafts in Indian use" etc. Basically, I don't think Russia has anything in production in sufficient numbers right now that Turkey would want. And Chinese planes even less. Both Russian and Chinese planes would need totally new maintenance infrastructure too. 

[urbanoid]

6 minutes ago, crazyinsane105 said:

How did you attain that time frame? 

Degraded production capabilities and the fact that Russia lost a lot of specialists and institutional knowledge. I remember reading that the average age for Sukhoi (or aerospace in general?) engineers is 60+. They haven't come up with anything completely new in more than 30 years, they don't even have the self-sufficiency of the Cold War times, there are Western components in their newest fighters, which themselves are reheated USSR leftovers.

A lot of future cadres would have to be educated to replace the existing ones nearing (or exceeding) retirement age. Even more if they want to expand their design and production capabilities, instead of merely surviving. Not going to be easy if they can simply finish their studies and emigrate and earn probably a lot more money elsewhere. Ukrainian unpleasantness caused another episode of Russia's brain-drain on top of the already shitty situation. 

Do you remember any situation where customers told the US to take their newly-produced and freshly delivered fighters back, because the quality was so fucking awful? Well, it happened with the Algerians and upgraded MiG-29s.

What can Turkey bring to the table besides money? The experience in F-16 assembly and upgrades? While valuable, it may not be enough to revive Russian aerospace industry and certainly won't bring anything 'cutting-edge' into the mix. 

Also this:

Quote

Flawed Planning and Technology Bottlenecks

Moving the PAK-DA programme out of the first-order rank of priorities is clear evidence of three deep and systemic problems within Russia’s defence-industrial complex. One is that the Russian armed forces establishment remains mired in a Soviet-era mindset. That mindset has generated a set of requirements that are products of a capability-based planning process rather than current-day analysis that examines Russia’s true national security problems.

Long-time analysts of the Russian aerospace and defence sector looking at the plans to now produce two strategic bombers have criticised this process, asking “what does Russia need new bombers for? To attack who and when? The General Staff believes we still have to be able to send bombers over the North Pole to attack America?”

The second problem is a deteriorating and shrinking military industrial complex. Most of Russia’s defence policy makers have refused to acknowledge that decades of neglect and almost no state orders from Moscow’s own military have turned the once-mighty Soviet defence sector into a shadow of its former self.

Borisov seemed to show what might be the first real recognition of this situation by higher levels of the Russian government when he told the Moscow Times “the objective reasons for the failure to meet state defence procurement orders include restrictions on the supply of imported parts and materials in connection with sanctions, discontinuation of production and the loss of an array of technologies, insufficient production facilities.” However, other members of Russian officialdom continue to issue impossible-to-fulfil objectives, and an ambitious plan for re-arming the armed forces with 70 per cent new military hardware by the middle of the next decade continues unabated despite the decreasing capacity within the industrial sector. The severe shortcomings that are caused by the loss of fluency with numerous technological disciplines are a deficiency that only gets worse in Russia. Another is that many components that Russian industry used to purchase from both western nations, as well as from their historical industrial partners in Ukraine – importing technologies that no longer exist in Russia – is no longer an option. These imports are now denied to them due to the embargoes put in place in response to Moscow’s invasions of Crimea and the Donbass regions of Ukraine.

But a third problem is a rapidly disappearing cadre of qualified technical specialists. The average age of a Russian military designer or engineer is still the highest of any nation that has a full-spectrum defence industrial sector. “We are dying off,” said one respected designer during private conversation. “Look at him,” he said as he gestured towards one of his colleagues. “Now, look at me – we all have white hair. We will be gone soon and there is no one coming behind us to replace us.”

While actuarial tables are one reality another is that others are being shoved into retirement for reasons of pure greed. One of Russia’s most well-known and talented military electronic system designers was told this year that it was time for him to retire. On the surface, this decision is a strange on is there is plenty of work for him to do and his design bureau has a critical role to play in developing Russia’s next-generation weapons. But, like many Russian defence R&D establishments, they reside in buildings that can earn far more by being sold off to real estate developers in Moscow than they can make off of yearly orders from the MoD. Thus there is a strong motivation by those in the Russian bureaucracy to declare these kinds of enterprises to be insolvent, push all the employees out the door and sell the land that the enterprise sits on. All of which ensures that the work of these designers will disappear into thin air.

https://pulaski.pl/en/policy-paper-russias-air-power-outdated-planning-and-technology-shortfalls/

[crazyinsane105]

15 minutes ago, Sardaukar said:

I am pretty sure Turkish AF has followed "saga of Russian aircrafts in Indian use" etc. Basically, I don't think Russia has anything in production in sufficient numbers right now that Turkey would want. And Chinese planes even less. Both Russian and Chinese planes would need totally new maintenance infrastructure too. 

Indian use of Russian aircraft is more or less their own doing though, that’s a completely separate discussion.

Agreed that Russia doesn’t have anything at the moment to fulfill Turkish demand, but after 2024 they might, especially if Turkey decides to do transfer of tech, which will help ease burden on the Russians. 
 

Yes, new infrastructure is needed, but this isn’t a show stopper either. 

[crazyinsane105]

4 minutes ago, urbanoid said:

Degraded production capabilities and the fact that Russia lost a lot of specialists and institutional knowledge. I remember reading that the average age for Sukhoi (or aerospace in general?) engineers is 60+. They haven't come up with anything completely new in more than 30 years, they don't even have the self-sufficiency of the Cold War times, there are Western components in their newest fighters, which themselves are reheated USSR leftovers.

A lot of future cadres would have to be educated to replace the existing ones nearing (or exceeding) retirement age. Even more if they want to expand their design and production capabilities, instead of merely surviving. Not going to be easy if they can simply finish their studies and emigrate and earn probably a lot more money elsewhere. Ukrainian unpleasantness caused another episode of Russia's brain-drain on top of the already shitty situation. 

Do you remember any situation where customers told the US to take their newly-produced and freshly delivered fighters back, because the quality was so fucking awful? Well, it happened with the Algerians and upgraded MiG-29s.

What can Turkey bring to the table besides money? The experience in F-16 assembly and upgrades? While valuable, it may not be enough to revive Russian aerospace industry and certainly won't bring anything 'cutting-edge' into the mix. 

Also this:

https://pulaski.pl/en/policy-paper-russias-air-power-outdated-planning-and-technology-shortfalls/

That’s actually quite an interesting read, thanks for that link. 
 

It just means the Russians are a bit more desperate to partner up with other countries for defense tech, and there are still plenty of areas where they excel in places that Turkey and Iran have no experience in. Namely jet engine production and other metallurgical areas. 

[Dawes]

Turkey is supposed to be working on it's own home-grown F-16 replacement fighter called "TF-X". Last I read, the engine was to be developed in cooperation with Rolls-Royce (although GE F-110's might be used in some developmental examples).

So, if Turkey can wait another 10-12 years maybe they'll have their own solution. If the project falls through, buying F-16's now seems prudent.

[crazyinsane105]

1 hour ago, Dawes said:

Turkey is supposed to be working on it's own home-grown F-16 replacement fighter called "TF-X". Last I read, the engine was to be developed in cooperation with Rolls-Royce (although GE F-110's might be used in some developmental examples).

So, if Turkey can wait another 10-12 years maybe they'll have their own solution. If the project falls through, buying F-16's now seems prudent.

Turkey has never manufactured a fighter jet itself, not a brand new one anyways. I have doubts they have the capability to pull this off, and they are looking to develop a next gen stealth aircraft, something that only 3 other countries on this planet have done: US, Russia, and China.

Building a next gen fighter isn't something easy, far from it. The Turks have very little experience in developing stealth aircraft and the associated avionics to support them. Yes, they've made huge progress on their drone industry, but manned fighter aircraft are a completely different ballgame.

I don't think its within Turkey's ability to get this done. So far the only other country to be a partner with TF-X is Pakistan. And having an American made engine puts this entire program at risk. 

[Daan]

Well, Turkey had never built a large UAV either, but has managed to become one of the most popular producers on the market today, with an increasing level of sophistication. Which European country has managed something similar?

The first 10 of the desired F110 engines for the TF-X prototypes were delivered this summer. All alternative suppliers of engines in this weight class have substantial risks as well.

[crazyinsane105]

8 minutes ago, Daan said:

Well, Turkey had never built a large UAV either, but has managed to become one of the most popular producers on the market today, with an increasing level of sophistication. Which European country has managed something similar?

The first 10 of the desired F110 engines for the TF-X prototypes were delivered this summer. All alternative suppliers of engines in this weight class have substantial risks as well.

Yes, agreed on the UAV front. But producing UAV's isn't as challenging as making manned aircraft. The issue is, as you specified, the actual engine. Aircraft must be designed around the engine, and you can't just swap it out for something else. Not being able to make their own engine is the key downfall of the Turkish aerospace industry, and this isn't something they can cover in 10-12 years. Countries like China have spent decades attempting to make their own engines, and they have just managed to achieve breakthroughs with their J series of aircraft (which btw, are still underpowered in comparison to their Russian counterparts). 

If the Turks agree to use GE as their choice, they run into significant problems. First, the Americans can easily restrict how many engines will be exported per year, or even abstain from providing rehaul on the engines themselves. This makes availability rate of TF-X dependent on American support. It's unlikely the US will ever transfer the rights for ToT of this engine to Turkey. So overall, TF-X success will rely on the US.

Also...

Turkish Aerospace Industries, a sister company of Tusas Engine Industries is designing, developing and building the TF-X. A source at TAI, who spoke to Defense News on the condition of anonymity, said that “Russia has the technology in aeroacoustic, aerothermodynamics and the infrastructure to build a fighter jet. Russia has the technology [in its Su-57 fighter] to build a fifth-generation turbofan engine. Cooperation would also involve avionics, propulsion system, radar, sensors, ejection seat and data link systems.”

The Presidency of Defense Industries recently issued a request for proposals to Turkish companies for the development of an indigenous engine to power the TF-X. Demir said the RFP aims to create a road map for building fighter jet engine technology in Turkey.

[crazyinsane105]

And then this...older news but still very relevant.

 

'Ready to share our expertise'

There were some indicators that Russia and Turkey might work together on the TF-X before Erdogan's September meeting with Putin. In late August, Russia's state-run TASS News reported that Moscow and Ankara were holding consultations on possible cooperation developing the TF-X.

"At this stage, consultations are underway with the Turkish side at the level of specialised groups on the issues of interaction on creating the Turkish national fighter," said Dmitry Shugayev, the director of Russia's Federal Service for Military-Technical Cooperation.

"In this regard, there are interesting areas where we could render technological assistance, considering the experience that our specialists possess in developing and manufacturing aircraft," he added. "And we are ready to share our expertise with our Turkish partners."

"But it is premature to talk about specific details at this stage."

Shortly after, in early September, Ismail Demir, the chair of SSB, said that Turkey's "door is open" to any allied country "who want to be part of this project".

[Dawes]

Isn't India dependent on GE for the engines for their Tejas fighter?

[crazyinsane105]

3 hours ago, Dawes said:

Isn't India dependent on GE for the engines for their Tejas fighter?

Yes. Tejas aircraft is so riddled with problems that IAF never deployed it in 2019 even though it had two active squadrons. Over 60 percent of the fleet has remained grounded much of the time, and engine issues are part of the reason. I should clarify…the engine itself isn’t the issue. It’s the way the aircraft was designed to utilize it which is the issue. 
 

Pakistan JF-17 relies on the Russian RD-93 and upgrades RD-93A. Even with all the sanctions, Mig is set to continuously deliver the RD-93A for further JF-17 Block 3 production.
 

The Chinese WS-13A has been in trial for over a decade and is still not good enough as the Russian RD-93. To think Turkey, which has no infrastructure on designing aircraft or engines, can just produce TF-X on its own is quite laughable. There is a massive difference in assembling an aircraft from kits versus designing one from scratch. 
 

 

[Daan]

You hastily step over the fact that Russia and China may well block the supply of engines and other parts when it suits them, just as the USA. The Indian experience is illustrative in this regard.

The Turks and Russians have fought many devastating wars over the centuries and just a few years ago had clashes in Syria with the Turks shooting down not only several aircraft of Russia's Syrian ally but a Russian Su-24 as well. The current rapprochement is one of convenience and may not last, as their interests in the region diverge sharply, see Syria or Nagorno-Karabach. Furthermore, Russia has relatively good relations with Greece and Cyprus, some of Turkey's main enemies. Would it continue to supply RD-33 engines without any hassles when it comes to renewed conflict there?

A similar problem arises with alternative engines from a European source, the somewhat smaller EJ200 and Snecma M88-4. The European nations will surely stand with Greece or Cyprus against Turkey in case of conflict.

The Chinese WS-10B is another option, brand new, supposedly with decent maximum thrust, but with the other performance characteristics completely unknown. Turkish-Chinese relations are currently relatively good, but theoretically there are points of contention, i.e. over influence in Central Asia etc. The PRC publicly criticized Turkey's foray into Syria.

The fact that Turkey prefers the GE F110 is telling. Surely, they must have considered alternatives and decided against them.

I am not sure the WS-10 series is significantly worse than the Russian AL-31 types available for export. Their rumored maximum thrust is in a similar class, other performance figures (throttle response, reliability, maintenance requirements etc.) are not in the public domain. Meanwhile all new combat jets for the Chinese airforce and naval airwing are built with domestic engines.

[Josh]

Sourcing anything from Russia seems pointless. India already got *out* of the Su-57 project a while ago; I can't imagine Turkey wanting to get in even if the Russians were willing, which also seems doubtful. Russia is retrenching its defense industry to be as independent of Western tech as possible; having a NATO member who's government could change in a single election doesn't seem like a natural move for them. Also Russian aircraft production is anemic it seems unlikely they will even meet their own incredibly modest target of 76 Su-57s by 2027-28.

China is definitely a real alternative though. There is nothing like the political or regional power baggage and unlike Russia, their defense industry is a rising star not a burn out sun waiting to implode. Presumably China would be willing to sell some of its less advanced engines and other components, and it definitely would be one stop shopping for anything you wanted aviation wise. Whether you want to saddle up to the US's major competitor depends on who you see being more politically important to Turkey in ten years.

My own opinion is that Turkey is neither a good ally nor a future threat, and I'm certainly no fan of Erdogan. If he wants to make Sweden/Finland a red line, I'm fine with making US F-16s/upgrade kits a red line too, and if he wants to shop Russian or Chinese, god speed. I suspect latter, and definitely the former, will bite Turkey in the ass in the long run if they go that route.

[Mistral]

It’s dead Jim.

I wonder if the offer was to placate the Sultan, in which case it failed, given that it’s since October 2021 that they requested the planes it looked like a play nice nice and you get the toys move by the US.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-64380066

[Josh]

2 hours ago, Mistral said:

It’s dead Jim.

I wonder if the offer was to placate the Sultan, in which case it failed, given that it’s since October 2021 that they requested the planes it looked like a play nice nice and you get the toys move by the US.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-64380066

If the position on the planes changes, then I suspect it was an attempt at a compromise that fell apart. If the F-16 sale goes through anyway, then I suspect that the US just doesn't want to use fighter aircraft as its pressure point and will instead use something economic in the future.

[crazyinsane105]

7 hours ago, Daan said:

You hastily step over the fact that Russia and China may well block the supply of engines and other parts when it suits them, just as the USA. The Indian experience is illustrative in this regard.

The Turks and Russians have fought many devastating wars over the centuries and just a few years ago had clashes in Syria with the Turks shooting down not only several aircraft of Russia's Syrian ally but a Russian Su-24 as well. The current rapprochement is one of convenience and may not last, as their interests in the region diverge sharply, see Syria or Nagorno-Karabach. Furthermore, Russia has relatively good relations with Greece and Cyprus, some of Turkey's main enemies. Would it continue to supply RD-33 engines without any hassles when it comes to renewed conflict there?

A similar problem arises with alternative engines from a European source, the somewhat smaller EJ200 and Snecma M88-4. The European nations will surely stand with Greece or Cyprus against Turkey in case of conflict.

The Chinese WS-10B is another option, brand new, supposedly with decent maximum thrust, but with the other performance characteristics completely unknown. Turkish-Chinese relations are currently relatively good, but theoretically there are points of contention, i.e. over influence in Central Asia etc. The PRC publicly criticized Turkey's foray into Syria.

The fact that Turkey prefers the GE F110 is telling. Surely, they must have considered alternatives and decided against them.

I am not sure the WS-10 series is significantly worse than the Russian AL-31 types available for export. Their rumored maximum thrust is in a similar class, other performance figures (throttle response, reliability, maintenance requirements etc.) are not in the public domain. Meanwhile all new combat jets for the Chinese airforce and naval airwing are built with domestic engines.

When was the last time India got blocked by Russia for spare parts? I can't recall that ever happening. India decided to leave the Su-57 program for strange reasons. No doubt the Su-57 was suffering some issues back then, but given India's own track record of LCA, they shot themselves in the foot by leaving the Su-57 as they literally do not have another fighter program outside their own domesticate ones which are, well, horrible. They have talked about doing ToT with Rafales, but that never came to fruit. Each time they have co-produced equipment with Russia, it actually turned out to be quite decent (their nuke subs, Brahmos missile, etc.) 

Right now, Pakistan is outright supplying weapons to Ukraine. But Russia is continuing to supply RD-93 engines for the JF-17. And the Russians agreed to the RD-93 deal with Pakistan in the early 2000's, and have not backed out of it. Russia 

Of course the Turks fought wars against Russia past few centuries. Last I checked, Ukrainians fought alongside Russians and were their closest allies at one point. This clearly isn't the case anymore. And yes, while both Turkey and Russia have conflicting interests in Syria, there is still significant cooperation between them in ensuring it doesn't escalate into a massive conflict either. 

 

Chinese aircraft are more or less underpowered when it comes to Russian equivalents. WS-10 is good, but in comparison to AL-31, it still has shortcomings. Chinese newest stealth aircraft still lags behind Russian engines as well

[urbanoid]

18 minutes ago, crazyinsane105 said:

When was the last time India got blocked by Russia for spare parts? I can't recall that ever happening. India decided to leave the Su-57 program for strange reasons. No doubt the Su-57 was suffering some issues back then, but given India's own track record of LCA, they shot themselves in the foot by leaving the Su-57 as they literally do not have another fighter program outside their own domesticate ones which are, well, horrible. They have talked about doing ToT with Rafales, but that never came to fruit. Each time they have co-produced equipment with Russia, it actually turned out to be quite decent (their nuke subs, Brahmos missile, etc.) 

Right now, Pakistan is outright supplying weapons to Ukraine. But Russia is continuing to supply RD-93 engines for the JF-17. And the Russians agreed to the RD-93 deal with Pakistan in the early 2000's, and have not backed out of it. Russia 

Of course the Turks fought wars against Russia past few centuries. Last I checked, Ukrainians fought alongside Russians and were their closest allies at one point. This clearly isn't the case anymore. And yes, while both Turkey and Russia have conflicting interests in Syria, there is still significant cooperation between them in ensuring it doesn't escalate into a massive conflict either. 

Chinese aircraft are more or less underpowered when it comes to Russian equivalents. WS-10 is good, but in comparison to AL-31, it still has shortcomings. Chinese newest stealth aircraft still lags behind Russian engines as well

In Syria, in the Caucasus, possibly in Central Asia (they're mostly Turkic speakers).

[Josh]

On 1/24/2023 at 12:11 PM, crazyinsane105 said:

When was the last time India got blocked by Russia for spare parts? I can't recall that ever happening. India decided to leave the Su-57 program for strange reasons. No doubt the Su-57 was suffering some issues back then, but given India's own track record of LCA, they shot themselves in the foot by leaving the Su-57 as they literally do not have another fighter program outside their own domesticate ones which are, well, horrible. They have talked about doing ToT with Rafales, but that never came to fruit. Each time they have co-produced equipment with Russia, it actually turned out to be quite decent (their nuke subs, Brahmos missile, etc.) 

In the case of Russia, I wouldn’t worry about their lack of will to supply as much as their lack of ability. Ask the Indians how they feel about Russian customer service. The Su-57 program might provide <80 airframes by 2027-28, if the current order remains on schedule. Unless the Indians we’re going to stamp out licensed copies end to end, it seems likely that as bad as Indian procurement is (and it does make the US look efficient), Russian defense projects are worse.

 

On 1/24/2023 at 12:11 PM, crazyinsane105 said:

 

Of course the Turks fought wars against Russia past few centuries. Last I checked, Ukrainians fought alongside Russians and were their closest allies at one point. This clearly isn't the case anymore. And yes, while both Turkey and Russia have conflicting interests in Syria, there is still significant cooperation between them in ensuring it doesn't escalate into a massive conflict either. 
 

In my opinion it would be more correct to say neither side has decisive enough advantage to press the other in Syria without committing more resources than either side is willing to for what is an ancillary concern. But the main risk for Turkey would still be as above: total lack of production and sustainment.

 

On 1/24/2023 at 12:11 PM, crazyinsane105 said:

 

Chinese aircraft are more or less underpowered when it comes to Russian equivalents. WS-10 is good, but in comparison to AL-31, it still has shortcomings. Chinese newest stealth aircraft still lags behind Russian engines as well

Agree, but unlike Russia, anything China produces can be built in mass. And WS-10s will get you off the ground even if they won’t do Mach 1.5 in dry thrust.

 

That said, there would be serious long term risks with alignment with the PRC. But at least there would be real world short term benefits, and none of the stink of the Ukrainian war hanging on Just The Tayyip’s neck.

Edited January 25, 2023 by Josh

[Daan]

23 hours ago, crazyinsane105 said:

When was the last time India got blocked by Russia for spare parts? I can't recall that ever happening. India decided to leave the Su-57 program for strange reasons. No doubt the Su-57 was suffering some issues back then, but given India's own track record of LCA, they shot themselves in the foot by leaving the Su-57 as they literally do not have another fighter program outside their own domesticate ones which are, well, horrible. They have talked about doing ToT with Rafales, but that never came to fruit. Each time they have co-produced equipment with Russia, it actually turned out to be quite decent (their nuke subs, Brahmos missile, etc.)

Moral homilies accompanied by sanctions is a Western method in international politics. Russia is different, it delays, its supplies just a trickle or demands renegotiations to raise the price. When a ToT is politely requested to manufacture the seemingly unavailable parts domestically, it declines. That is the Indian experience. When in December 2015 India's Auditing Agency released a report detailing the poor serviceability and high maintenance expense of the Su-30MKI, India could only improve the situation by renegotiating new spare parts contracts, the asked for ToT did not take place. The fleet also suffered a high number of engine related failures. The Indian experience seems to have influenced the country's withdrawal from the then PAK FA project and acquire Rafales to improve the readiness of its fleet of combat aircraft.

 

23 hours ago, crazyinsane105 said:

Right now, Pakistan is outright supplying weapons to Ukraine. But Russia is continuing to supply RD-93 engines for the JF-17. And the Russians agreed to the RD-93 deal with Pakistan in the early 2000's, and have not backed out of it. Russia

The RD-93 was the only engine then available for a Chinese design. The relations between Russian and Pakistan have warmed since the Cold War, given their compatible interests in the region. Pakistan is not Turkey however.

 

23 hours ago, crazyinsane105 said:

Of course the Turks fought wars against Russia past few centuries. Last I checked, Ukrainians fought alongside Russians and were their closest allies at one point. This clearly isn't the case anymore. And yes, while both Turkey and Russia have conflicting interests in Syria, there is still significant cooperation between them in ensuring it doesn't escalate into a massive conflict either.

Given the recent hostilities and clashing interests in the region (wherever you look), I find the preference for Russians engines over US engines on grounds of the reliability of the supplier rather odd. Anyways, the Turks wanted US engines and received them. The acquisition of the S-400 by Turkey and the resulting cancellation / postponement of Turkish participation in the F-35 project was a great feat of Russian opportunism and a stupid mistake by Turkey. There are some lines that are not to be crossed.  

 

23 hours ago, crazyinsane105 said:

Chinese aircraft are more or less underpowered when it comes to Russian equivalents. WS-10 is good, but in comparison to AL-31, it still has shortcomings. Chinese newest stealth aircraft still lags behind Russian engines as well

With no information to go on other than Russia being longer in the business of developing and manufacturing combat jet engines, I'd wager than Russia is still ahead in engine technology. However, the Chinese seem to have caught up rapidly. After spending some years sorting out the problems of the WS-10, it is now put into nearly every domestic combat aircraft. Apparently, the engine's performance and built-up of the PRC domestic manufacturing capacity do weigh up against the draw backs of relying on Russia for engines. A mitigating factor may be that the Chinese have incorporated lots of composites in their Flankers, significantly lightening these aircraft.