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90s NATO and WP OOB- What if


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11 hours ago, Perun said:

Thanks mate. Could af sent more units except one you mentioned

That's a good question... around the end of the Cold War this was the status of the different wings (Alas):

Ala 11: 2 squadrons equipped with Mirage IIIEE, though the second squadron was deactivated on 31st December 1989. Modernisation was cancelled in 1991 and the remaining aircraft were withdrawn in 1992. These were mainly interceptors but have a secondary ground attack role. Worked closely with the French Air Force.

Ala 12: equipped with F-4Cs could be deployed to an airbase that has National Guard F-4s deployed, but in the late 80s they were getting ready to replace them with EF-18s and crews were being trained on them so their ability to deploy would be doubtful. The F-4C were withdrawn in 1989, but 8 RF-4C were added to create a full squadron of tactical reconnaissance planes.

Ala 14: 2 squadrons of Mirage F1C, both had a main role as Clear Weather Interceptor (CWI) and a secondary one of Fighter Bomber (FBA). Fully combat ready and could deploy one squadron to NATO.

https://www.defensa.com/ayer-noticia/los-mirage-f1-de-los-llanos

Ala 15: on January 13, 1988, it reached 5,000 flight hours. That month, the unit fulfilled its complement of aircraft, integrated into the three Squadrons, one which was the OCU, but only from 14 January 1989 was it integrated on the Air Defence System, which seems to mean that was the point the Wing was IOC for All Weather Intercept (AWX) - note this is the point at which F-4Cs are withdrawn. Could probably deploy one squadron from instructors and combat ready aircrew.

Ala 21: 2 squadrons equipped with F-5s with a CAS and a tactical recon mission respectively. They were suffering from structural weakness, but this was only known in 1991, and the wing was disbanded in 1992. Both squadrons are deployable in principle.

Ala 46: 1 squadron of Mirage F1EE, used for the defence of the Canaries, so non deployable.

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On 12/8/2023 at 7:41 PM, RETAC21 said:

My guess would be:

11/12th Armored Brigade, it was equipped with AMX-30/M113/M109 and would have Milan and SP mortars

Legion Brigade: out of the different banderas, which were manned by volunteers, a brigade could be put together with 2 mechanised battalions (on BMR-600), and airmobile (ie light infantry) battalion and special forces pulled from the Special Operations battalion

Parachute brigade of 3 battalions (all volunteers)

Tercio de Armada (Marine Brigade): 2 infantry battalions, 1 tank company (M48A3), 1 recon company (Scorpion), AT company (12 TOW on Land Rovers), Artillery group with 6 M109 and 12 OTO Melara

Recon battalion out of the 14th Cavalry regiment and the 1st Cavalry brigade with AMX-30, VEC, M113

Artillery group: with 12xM110A2 and 36xM109s, plus (possibly) 12 Teruel MRLs

Air Defence provided by the HAWK battalion and 35mm guns.

Volunteers would still be conscripts but there would be more professionals than in other units. If sent to Italy, mountain units (2 divisions) are likely to put together a Battalion manned by trained climbers/skiers on the basis of the units and the mountain school.

So this would be 1st Brunete division, I presume, with some AAA and field arty suport + parachute brigade. I guess that aome if not all helicopter units would be sent.

Do you have more detailes and detailed  oob for marine brigade?

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1 hour ago, Perun said:

So this would be 1st Brunete division, I presume, with some AAA and field arty suport + parachute brigade. I guess that aome if not all helicopter units would be sent.

Do you have more detailes and detailed  oob for marine brigade?

It can be found here: https://www.microarmormayhem.com/NATO_ORDER_OF_BATTLE_mod_8.doc

Tercio de Armada – (Marine Brigade)
    A.    HQ & HQ Co, Service Platoon, Police Platoon
    B.    Landing Group (Agrupacion de Desembarco – AD)
        1.    Batallon de Desmbarco 1
            a.    HQ & Service Co.
            b.    Recon Platoon: 3 Recon squads: 6 Land Rovers; 6 Recon teams, Radar squad, FO squad
            c.    Anti-tank. Platoon:  6 106mm RR 
            d.    Weapons Co:  8 81mm mortars on Land Rover, 6 12.7mm MGs on Land Rover
            e.    3 x Infantry Cos, each:  2 60mm Mortars, 3 Dragon ATGM, 9 Infantry squads
        2.    Batallon de Desmbarco 2
            a.    HQ & Service Co.
            b.    Recon Platoon: 3 Recon squads: 6 Land Rovers; 6 Recon teams, Radar squad, FO squad
            c.    Anti-tank. Platoon:  6 106mm RR 
            d.    Weapons Co:  8 81mm mortars on Land Rover, 6 12.7mm MGs on Land Rover
            e.    3 x Infantry Cos, each:  2 60mm Mortars, 3 Dragon ATGM, 9 Infantry squads
        3.    Special Operations Unit (UOE)
            a.    3 Special Operations Platoons: 3 squads each.
        4.    Combat Support Group (AAC)
            a.    HQ & Service Co.
b.    Landing Artillery Group (GAD)
1.    HQ & Service Battery
2.    SP Battery: 6 M-109A2 SP Guns, 6 M992 FAASV
3.    2 Howitzer Batteries: 6 105mm M56 howitzers each
4.     Light SAM Btty: 20mm Oerlikon AA Guns
            c.    Amphibious Mechanized Group (GMA)
1.    Amphibious Tractor Co: 16 LVTP-7
2.    Tank Co. 16 M48A3E; 17 Scorpion light tanks
3.    Anti-tank Co. 12 TOW on Land Rover
4.    3 Transport Cos:  12 BLR each
 

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There is also this document, which is pretty detailed, but matches up pretty well with the numbers posted by Retac21 abover:

https://www.fireandfury.com/orbats/modcwspanish.pdf

Please bear in mind that its written to provide army lists for a set of gaming rules (Fire and Fury modern), which use the scale of 1 stand equals two real weapons/tank/vehicle etc. So if you want the real number of tanks/vehicles etc you need to double the number shown in the pdf.

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On 1/9/2023 at 11:07 PM, bojan said:

Oh, here is a plan for Yugoslavia from December 1990.:

Tanks:

- T-34s, M-47s - to be retired until end of 1995/1993.

- T-55s - 500 was to be upgraded until the end of 1995 to T-55A1 standard (M-84 level FCS, but no additional armor). 500 unmodernizes should be left also at that point, remaining tanks being retired and sold. Those would be than gradually retired, until ~2000 but this was not "hard date". 500 upgraded ones would be kept in service post 2000. It was planned that there would be ~1600 tanks by 2000 - 500 modernized T-55s in infantry and motorized brigades, ~750 M-84/M-84A and ~250 new M-90/M-91 "Vihor" in armoredand mechanized brigades and another ~90 T-72s that might, or might not be modernized to M-84 standard.

- M-84/84A - license agreement for T-72 was for 1000 tanks produced, so minus 250 for Kuwait maximum number is 750.

- M-90/M-91 Vihor was in final stages of development, in order to keep producing tanks after 1000 M-84s were produced (total M-84 production IRL was somewhat lesst than 700). It was planned that production would have started about 1994-95. New tungsten high performance APFSDS M93 was supposed to be introduced. ERA was being worked on. It appears that "zero series" would have had 2+gen II, with thermals being planned to be introduced in real serial production.

 

Light armor:

- PT-76 - to be retired until 1995 from A category and 1999 form B and R category units and replaced by IBV M-90 (see bellow).

- M-60P APC - to be retired until about 2000, no upgrades were planned, replaced by M-80A/A1 IFVs.

- M-80A IFV - new version, M-80A1 with 30mm cannon and FCS with laser range finder was supposed to enter production in mid-late 1992. After all Mech and Armored units receiving either M-80A or M-80A1, modernization of M-80A to A1 standard would be started. There were no definite plans when this was supposed to be finished.

- IBV 90/IBV M-90 (not official designation, just a project designation) - Recce vehicle based on M-80A1 with thermal instead of 2+ gen II and ground surveyance radar. This was supposed to replace both BRDM-2 and PT-76 in Recce Cos of Mechanized and Armored Brigades

- BRDM-2 - modernization was planned. It included new diesel engine, removal of "belly wheels", side doors, reduction of main armament from 14.5 to 12.7 (in order to free up space inside turret), night observation sight with 2+ gen II. This was supposed to be used in Recce Cos of the Motorized Brigades. Modernization would have been completed by 1995. and by 2000. all non-modernized ones were planned to be retired.

- BOV AFV - production of main version was supposed to stop by 1995. It was to remain main transport for Military Police. Production of BOV-3 AD version was to last until 1993-94 when it would be replaced in production by M-80A2 Foka (see in AD)

- 6x6 APC - by 1995. local production should have started, after which motorized brigades should be converted from trucks to APCs, but with retention of general structure of Plt/Co/Bn and Bde. There were two competing designs, one local based on VAB 6x6, and other was Austrian Pandur.

 

Artillery:

- M-18 Hellcat - retired until 1993.

- M-36 Jackson - no real plan that mentions those. I suspect they would survive until early 2000s as they did historically, because there was simply nothing to replace them.

- 2S1 - additional ones were supposed to be acquired in order to enable every armored and mechanized brigade to have one Bn of 18.

- 152mm Nora-A - production until it replaces all 155mm M-1, 152mm D-20 in active service

- 152mm M-46/86 - production to start about 1993., in order to start replacing 130mm M-46 guns.

- a lot of artillery was scheduled for retirement. 105mm M18/61(n), 105mm M2, part of 105mm M56. 105mm M56 would be modernized with L/33 barrel and kept for single mountain and 7 hill Bdes, each of which was supposed to get single Bn of 18.

- 128mm M63 MRL - upgraded rockets with 15km range introduced

- 128mm M-77 MRL - introduction of FASCAM and submunition rockets (second one happed IRL on very small scale).

- 100mm T-12 ATG - supposed to receive FCS with LRF (instead of LRF being issued 1/plt), but no hard dates. Version on D-30's 3-trail carriage and APU was considered, but not clear if it would have been produced or not and if produced would those be upgrades for already existing guns.

- 152mm truck mounted artillery - project started in 1989., it was estimated that by 1997. those would have started being produced.

- 262mm M-87 Orkan MRL - full scale production expected by 1993. Inercialy corrected rockets were being developed.

By 2000. arty would have following weapons (excluding AT guns):

- 105mm M56 - L/33 - mountain and hill brigades

- 122mm D-30J - infantry brigades

- 122mm 2S1 - armored and mechanized brigades

- 152mm M84 Nora - L/39 - corps level

- 152mm M-46/86 - L/45 - army level

- 128mm M63 MRL - infantry and motorized Bdes

- 128mm M-77 MRL - armored and mech Bdes as well as Corps level

- 262mm M-87 MRL - Army level, supreme HQ reserve

- Locally developed 400mm, 100-150km range guided missile was supposed to be introduced by 2000. to replace Luna-M/Frog-7.

 

 

Air Force and AD:

- Igla license, to replace already produced (upgraded) Strela-2M/A, production supposed to switch by 1994-95.

- Strela-10M2J on modified M-80 IFV hull was supposed to be produced under license (license was acquired in 1989. and single prototype built by 1991). Missiles were supposed to receive same seeker as on Igla by 1995.

- M-80A2 "Foka" twin 30mm AD, with Oerlikon "Gun King" FCS was supposed to enter service by 1994-95.

- Buk (army AD) and S-300 (theater AD) acquisition. Modernization of Kub and Neva. Probably retirement of Dvina/Volkhov.

- Additional two squadrons of MiG-29

- Improved G-4M trainer/light attacker

- upgraded J-22 Orao enabling use more types of PGM

- Novi Avion jet figher project I find unlikely to enter service until 2000 (if ever). It was supposed to be done with French help, as a sort of single engine Rafale.

 

Infantry:

- By the end of 1995. enough 7.62x39mm automatic rifles were supposed to be produced to rearm all active units as well as provide enough weapons for ~2/3 of the reserve. After that, in 1996. production of 5.56mm rifles would start, and as those would arrive to active units firsts additional 7.62x39mm automat rifles would be available to replace semi-auto 7.62x39 rifles among reserves. 7.9x57 M53 machineguns were supposed to be fully replaced by 7.62mm M84 by 1993. in active units (in practice it has happened even faster), and until 2000. in reserves.

- 12.7mm sniper rifle - work started in 1989-90, planned introduction in 1993.

- M90 "Strsljen" LAW was supposed to supplement M80 "Zolja" LAW. Tandem HEAT projectile for M79 Osa was developed.

- ATGMs - very murky area. Additional 9K111 Fagot were supposed to be acquired for motorized and infantry units. M80 Drug project was once again tried, this time as local guidance unit capable with both Fagot and Milan-2 missiles, through it is not clear if there was a real intent to acquire Milan-2 or it was just an export oriented feature. Longer range ATGM was supposed to be acquired to finally start replacing Saggers, but it is not known which one exactly - TOW (BGM-71D TOW-2 IIRC) was (once again) on the table, and Soviets were IIRC offering license for Konkurs. French pushed HOT-2. Short range "Bumbar" (basically Eryx...) was supposed to replace RCLs in infantry and motorized companies, as well as AT companies in infantry and motorized Bns with production starting by ~1995.. At one moment, in 1989. Metis was actually considered, probably as fail-safe for "Bumbar".

Navy:

Replacement of SS-N-2 Styx by RBS-15s on FAC and patrol boats. There were more projects, but i have very little data about navy.

 

New submarine armed with missiles, new missile corvetes, new landing ships, new OPV, new 100 mm gun for coastal artillery, new trucks armed with RBS-15 missiles, new naval mine, new naval mine for aircrafts...majority of this was in final phase but some were only in plans

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Thank you, I knew about those but had no timeline for introduction so I have skipped them.

Edited by bojan
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That is my old site :)

M46/86 - 45 caliber barrel, 23l (IIRC) chamber, ~30km range with standard round, ~35 with ERFB, ~40 with ERFB-BB, ~45km with RAP. Like M84 NORA, it was based on Gerard Bull work and +/- shared ballistics with other 1980s Bull derived 45 caliber gun, like Austrian GHN-45 and South African G-5.

Edited by bojan
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On 9/16/2023 at 8:06 PM, Pavel Novak said:

I was looking little bit more to 8th Fighter Aviation Regiment and it doesn't had enough MiG-21PFM for whole squadron in 1988/89 so its first squadron was mix of MiG-21PFM and MiG-21PF. When it received MiG-21MF in 1989 for first squadron the second squadron became this mix of MiG-21PFM and MiG-21PF. And these "PF"still operated in first half of 1990 but by mid of year ended their career.

I found this:

"...v roce 1988 se u pluku nalézalo 15 letounů MiG-21PFM, 20 kusů MiG-21PF a 4 cvičné stroje MiG-21US, doplněné 4 letouny L-39ZA."

Translation is: in 1989. regiment had

15 MiG-21PFM,

20 MiG-21 PF,

4 MiG-21 US,

4 L-39ZA.

Source is great and interesting site 

https://www.valka.cz/topic/view/19012

Edited by Perun
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@Pavel Novak do you know what would be the war time role for 1st Air School Regiment in Prerov? Would it be used for air defence or only for training or both?

Edited by Perun
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1 hour ago, Perun said:

I found this:

"...v roce 1988 se u pluku nalézalo 15 letounů MiG-21PFM, 20 kusů MiG-21PF a 4 cvičné stroje MiG-21US, doplněné 4 letouny L-39ZA."

Translation is: in 1989. regiment had

15 MiG-21PFM,

20 MiG-21 PF,

4 MiG-21 US,

4 L-39ZA.

Source is great and interesting site 

https://www.valka.cz/topic/view/19012

I will look into this. There were 2 squadrons with MiG-21PFM in 11th Fighter so there has to be some aircraft exchange I have missed because otherwise there were not enough PFM in the airforce.

PF are clear. Originally there were more of them in 8th Fighter but in 1985 there was exchange with 9th Fighter which got some from 8th Fighter. At that time also 8th got some MiG-21F-13 but maybe they exchanged them for PFM with 11th. Tracking MiG-21 transfers is hell.

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On 3/4/2024 at 5:06 PM, Pavel Novak said:

Towed 30mm PLDvK-53 or self-propelled PLDvK-53/59.

Were the Czechoslovakian ones ever modernized?

Here there were 3 major versions - M-53/59, same as Czechoslovakian, improved M-53/70 (engine changed to a local one, IIRC 130hp, new electric system and few other upgrades), and M-53/85 with J-171A (license from Officine Galileo) FCS/gunsight. Further upgrade was considered, with integration of either BOFI or Gun King FCS, as well as night vision, but AFAIK only 2 were ever converted (with BOFI) as M53/97.

Edited by bojan
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2 hours ago, bojan said:

We the Czechoslovakian ones ever modernized?

Here there were 3 major versions - M-53/59, same as Czechoslovakian, improved M-53/70 (engine changed to a local one, IIRC 130hp, new electric system and few other upgrades), and M-53/85 with J-171A (license from Officine Galileo) FCS/gunsight. Further upgrade was considered, with integration of either BOFI or Gun King FCS, as well as night vision, but AFAIK only 2 were ever converted (with BOFI) as M53/97.

At some point they got new optics and new radio. The problem here was that in 1970s there was ambitious development for new self propelled 30 mm with advanced FCS (on paper way more capable than ZSU-23-4). So there was no reason to invest more in 53/59. But development was not finished (lot of issues) and instead it was replaced with STROP project which when it was finally close to finish the Cold war was over.

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11 hours ago, Pavel Novak said:

I will look into this. There were 2 squadrons with MiG-21PFM in 11th Fighter so there has to be some aircraft exchange I have missed because otherwise there were not enough PFM in the airforce.

PF are clear. Originally there were more of them in 8th Fighter but in 1985 there was exchange with 9th Fighter which got some from 8th Fighter. At that time also 8th got some MiG-21F-13 but maybe they exchanged them for PFM with 11th. Tracking MiG-21 transfers is hell.

I have tried to make some order in my notes and now I have this:

- at the end of year 1980 "PFM" were distributed between 1st Fighter and 11th Fighter - both with two squadrons* --- total aircrafts 43

- in 1981 there was reorganization where 1st Fighter got rid of its "PFM" which went to 11th Fighter (3 full squadrons now --- 36 aircrafts) and 8th Fighter (rest - just 6 aircrafts) --- one was just lost in 1981

- this changed in 1983 when 8th Fighter got another 10 aircrafts so now had 16 MiG-21PFM (later one crashed in 1984) while 11th Fighter was left with 2 squadrons with total 25 MiG-21PFM (because one just crashed in 1983). This was because its first squadron got MiG-23MF.

- this distribution stayed this way up to 1989 where 8th Fighter still had 15 MiG-21PFM but 11th Fighter had 23 (two crashed in 1988).

- in 1990 started their decommission which was finished in 1991

Originally I forget/was wrong with that 1983 transfer from 11th Fighter to 8th Fighter so I got wrong numbers.

I am still not 100 % sure with individual aircrafts distribution.

*EDIT: Or there was just one squadron with them in 1st Fighter because they got MiG-23MF from 1978 and also had MiG-21MF.

Edited by Pavel Novak
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1 hour ago, Pavel Novak said:

At some point they got new optics and new radio. The problem here was that in 1970s there was ambitious development for new self propelled 30 mm with advanced FCS (on paper way more capable than ZSU-23-4). So there was no reason to invest more in 53/59. But development was not finished (lot of issues) and instead it was replaced with STROP project which when it was finally close to finish the Cold war was over.

Do you have more information/detail on the STROP project?

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