90s NATO and WP OOB- What if

[Captain Hurricane]

You've probably got this site bookmarked already Perun but you can find a very detailed view of the Netherlands armed forces in 1985 at Hans Boersma's excellent website: https://www.orbat85.nl/

[Perun]

Yes, I got it, it is excellent site. Thanks mate.

I posted link because book has interesting comments abbout Dutch armed forces capabilities

[Perun]

Warszawapagtens aggressionsmuligheder mod dansk område

http://www.marinehist.dk/orlogsbib/f/FE-WAPA1986.pdf

[Rick]

I have a limited understanding of Soviet Army forces of this era. From memory, I heard or read where Soviet Army formations were tank-heavy and infantry weak. From this an idea was to concentrate on infantry carrying vehicles and then combat the tanks later on.

I also remember from a U.S.M.C. Dragon operator who stated that he was trained to shoot anti-air vehicles first -- if possible. 

[Tim Sielbeck]

5 hours ago, Rick said:on.

I also remember from a U.S.M.C. Dragon operator who stated that he was trained to shoot anti-air vehicles first -- if possible. 

We were told the same thing.  It was to make it safer for the Air Force to fly ground attack missions.

[bojan]

6 hours ago, Rick said:

...I heard or read where Soviet Army formations were tank-heavy and infantry weak....

They were all mechanized, either with IFVs (BMP) or APCs (BTR). Their motor-rifle company had barely 70something  dismounts. But that is also true with almost other mechanized forces, IIRC US Mech Co had ~80 dismounts.

[Perun]

Some interesting papers:

Soviet-Warsaw Pact Western Theater of Military Operations: Organization and Missions

https://apps.dtic.mil/sti/pdfs/ADA187140.pdf

 

EMPLOYMENT OF WARSAW PACT FORCES AGAINST NATO

https://www.cia.gov/readingroom/docs/CIA-RDP86T00303R000100070003-3.pdf

 

SOVIET NAVAL STRATEGY: CONCEPTS AND FORCES FOR THEATER WAR AGAINST NATO

https://www.cia.gov/readingroom/docs/DOC_0005584947.pdf

[Perun]

Interesting site with pdf documents

http://infowsparcie.net/wria/menu/opk_uw.html

Historia
Wojsk Obrony Powietrznej Kraju w państwach byłego
Układu Warszawskiego

Warsaw Pact states AA defense

[Captain Hurricane]

Thanks for the recent links you have posted in this thread Perun.

I didn't know that the NVA actually got thier hands on some actual SA-10's just before the reunification occured.

I'm sure that their new West German friends studied the equipment diligently before returning it to the Soviets 🙂

 

[Perun]

No problem mate, I hope that others will share interesting links to 🙂

About DDR S-300 system I tought that those were returned before reunification

[GJK]

Thanks for sharing these, really interesting.

Best,

Greg.

[Perun]

Does any one have more info on Spanish and Portugese involment in possible WW3? I know that they would be used in Italy but exactly where and which units I dont know. What offensive capabilities Spanish and Portugese army had back then?

Time of this scenario is 1989.

Edited December 7, 2023 by Perun

[Lesley]

I don't have any references but I remember that I was been told back in the nineties that the Portuguese A-7s were to be deployed to Woensdrecht AB in the Netherlands

[RETAC21]

On 12/6/2023 at 10:24 AM, Perun said:

Does any one have more info on Spanish and Portugese involment in possible WW3? I know that they would be used in Italy but exactly where and which units I dont know. What offensive capabilities Spanish and Portugese army had back then?

Time of this scenario is 1989.

Only Portugal was committed to NATO, Spain was part of the alliance but was outside of its military hierarchy, so Spanish military forces remained under national command and didn't train as part of the defense plans of NATO. In practice, this meant that the Navy trained with other NATO navies in the Spanish AOR (Canaries-Gibraltar-Balearics), the Air Force trained with the USAF and France as bilateral relationships, and the Army did nothing. In 1989 things started to change and the Army sent patrols to the LRRP competition, but I believe it was only in 1992 that the Spanish Marines joined NATO exercise Display Determination as a NATO exercise. 

So Italy was the expected AOR if the Spanish Corps was deployed, but it was not a sure thing by any means, and that without getting into the ability of the Spanish Army to logistically deploy there...

[Stuart Galbraith]

Is there any good source on what the Spanish Corp had, say, early 1980's? Just wondering how much might actually have turned up in Italy.

[Perun]

1 hour ago, RETAC21 said:

Only Portugal was committed to NATO, Spain was part of the alliance but was outside of its military hierarchy, so Spanish military forces remained under national command and didn't train as part of the defense plans of NATO. In practice, this meant that the Navy trained with other NATO navies in the Spanish AOR (Canaries-Gibraltar-Balearics), the Air Force trained with the USAF and France as bilateral relationships, and the Army did nothing. In 1989 things started to change and the Army sent patrols to the LRRP competition, but I believe it was only in 1992 that the Spanish Marines joined NATO exercise Display Determination as a NATO exercise. 

So Italy was the expected AOR if the Spanish Corps was deployed, but it was not a sure thing by any means, and that without getting into the ability of the Spanish Army to logistically deploy there...

What kind of logistical capability or problems existed back then

[Perun]

I wargamed with whole Spanish and Portugese army and AF in Italy 🙂

But I want it to be as much as realistic as posible so it would be nice to learn more stuff about Spanish and Portugese capabilities

[RETAC21]

Just now, Perun said:

What kind of logistical capability or problems existed back then

Few trucks and those that were, were rather long in the tooth. In my personal experience (and this was in '95) we had a hell of a time getting enough vehicles on the road for the whole signals company, with lots of vehicles but most of them redlined, to the point of trying to load Land Rovers on flatbed trucks to get enough stations on maneuvers. I doubt other units were better off.

[Perun]

1 minute ago, RETAC21 said:

Few trucks and those that were, were rather long in the tooth. In my personal experience (and this was in '95) we had a hell of a time getting enough vehicles on the road for the whole signals company, with lots of vehicles but most of them redlined, to the point of trying to load Land Rovers on flatbed trucks to get enough stations on maneuvers. I doubt other units were better off.

So I can write off rapid deoloyment, write? How about offensive operations outside of Spain, for example northern Italy-Austria-Hungary 

[RETAC21]

Just now, Perun said:

I wargamed with whole Spanish and Portugese army and AF in Italy 🙂

But I want it to be as much as realistic as posible so it would be nice to learn more stuff about Spanish and Portugese capabilities

Depending on the year, the Ejercito del Aire was also rather precarious.

The F-4Cs were not only Vietnam veterans, but also were not modernised in any way, so all the problems the USAF had over Vietnam, the EdelA had, even though they were good bomb trucks. EF-18s were only just arriving at the end of the Cold War, so the other tactical aircraft the was the F-5A, which were suffering from wear (they were withdrawn when one lost a wing in flight, always a bad thing). Mirage IIIEE were supposed to be modernised but that didn't came through and were withdrawn in 1988 so the bottomline was that only the Mirage F-1CE of Albacete were somewhat deployable, but at least one squadron had to be left behind for air defence.

The Navy was a bit better off, it could put a battlegroup at sea with AV-8A/Bs off the new Principe de Asturias in 1988, escorted by FFG-7s and F-70s, but didn't have a supply at sea ship since Teide was decommissioned to become a movie start in "Navy SEALS". The submarine force was at the top of its game with 8 modern submarines (4 Daphne+4 Agosta), while the mine warfare force was rather quaint, with boats being used as patrol ships.

[RETAC21]

3 minutes ago, Perun said:

So I can write off rapid deoloyment, write? How about offensive operations outside of Spain, for example northern Italy-Austria-Hungary 

For heavy units, I think a Brigade could have been put together on the basis of 11th and 12th Brigades (2 battalions of AMX-30+mechanised battalion on M113+SP Artillery battalion with M109). Parachute, Marines and the Legion would be high readiness, high availability forces. Anything else, would need much effort to mobilise and deploy, without going into the political shitstorm that would be kicked off.

[Perun]

In my scenario, Legion was back home, guarding African territories, navy was guarding Gibraltar straits, mainly ASW role, and Atlantic convoys guard duties. 

I played with army and af, acording to you I was miscalculated a lot. So, what do you think would be needed to mobilise and send army and af to Italy and attack WP? In my scenario NATO had 6 months

[RETAC21]

19 minutes ago, Perun said:

In my scenario, Legion was back home, guarding African territories, navy was guarding Gibraltar straits, mainly ASW role, and Atlantic convoys guard duties. 

I played with army and af, acording to you I was miscalculated a lot. So, what do you think would be needed to mobilise and send army and af to Italy and attack WP? In my scenario NATO had 6 months

A full corps? 3 months (recall reservists, train people that just joined, move everything) at the minimum, with everything going smoothly and pulling logistics off the civilian economy. And that would require a level of WP menace that was undeniable.

See here: https://web.archive.org/web/20180727161835/http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a237248.pdf

[Perun]

I guess that main logistic line from Spain to Italy could be done by rail and sea.

From Italy it could be moved by rail and trucks. 

But now my main problem for new scenario is how much and which units I could count it in. Do you have some sugestions?

[RETAC21]

8 minutes ago, Perun said:

I guess that main logistic line from Spain to Italy could be done by rail and sea.

From Italy it could be moved by rail and trucks. 

But now my main problem for new scenario is how much and which units I could count it in. Do you have some sugestions?

My guess would be:

11/12th Armored Brigade, it was equipped with AMX-30/M113/M109 and would have Milan and SP mortars

Legion Brigade: out of the different banderas, which were manned by volunteers, a brigade could be put together with 2 mechanised battalions (on BMR-600), and airmobile (ie light infantry) battalion and special forces pulled from the Special Operations battalion

Parachute brigade of 3 battalions (all volunteers)

Tercio de Armada (Marine Brigade): 2 infantry battalions, 1 tank company (M48A3), 1 recon company (Scorpion), AT company (12 TOW on Land Rovers), Artillery group with 6 M109 and 12 OTO Melara

Recon battalion out of the 14th Cavalry regiment and the 1st Cavalry brigade with AMX-30, VEC, M113

Artillery group: with 12xM110A2 and 36xM109s, plus (possibly) 12 Teruel MRLs

Air Defence provided by the HAWK battalion and 35mm guns.

Volunteers would still be conscripts but there would be more professionals than in other units. If sent to Italy, mountain units (2 divisions) are likely to put together a Battalion manned by trained climbers/skiers on the basis of the units and the mountain school.