90s NATO and WP OOB- What if

[Perun]

6 hours ago, bojan said:

More Yugoslav plans:

Transport and auxiliary aviation:

- An-32 for An-26 replacement

- 3 ex-Canadian L-100-30 for heavy transport component (technical delegation was selected to be sent to Canada to organize pilot and mechanics training in february 1991, but never sent due the deteriorating situation in Yugoslavia)

- Mi-17, one or two squadrons to replace oldest Mi-8s (1968. production, 28 year lifetime would expire in 1996) as temporary measure unit until new helicopter was decided upon. Decision was expected to be done until mid-90s, production of new type starting in early 2000s. USSR offered joint production of improved Mi-17 (Mi-38), while France offered Puma. Due the good cooperation with France with Gazelle Puma was more likely, but for from certain.

- One or two Mi-26. Exact purpose of those is not really known, army did not have explicit need for them, so it is possible those were civilian purchase.

- Two further CL-215 firefighting planes (formally civilian purchase, but went through military acquisition process for some reason...).

Combat aviation:

- Integration of night sight (not specified which) into HN-42/45 Gazelle AT helos.

- Acquisition of 12 or 16 Mi-24VP. No further acquisition was planned, those would be concentrated in the single squadron in Nis.

- 4 additional Ka-28 and integration of Mk.46 torpedo to it

- Another 20 MiG-29s, probably 4 trainers and rest single seat. Existing 16 would be transfered to Bihac Zeljava air-base, while new ones would be stationed in Batajnica

- Modernization of MiG-21 with improved radar, BWR missiles etc. Basically same as Indian Bison upgrade.

- G-4M modernized trainer, adding PGM (AGM-65B/D) and AA (R-60) capability.

- J-22M modernization of J-22 attack plane. Inner hardpoint would be reinforced to 1000kg each (vs 750kg standard), stronger engines, it would get ability to carry targeting pod with LRF/LD and thermal sight on the centerline, PGMs would be AGM-65B/D and 250kg LGBs. It could also carry 2 x R-60 on two additional hardpoints. Israeli Elta ELL-8212 jammer pod was supposed to be carried on one of the R-60 hardpoints. Lockid TFR pod would be available (it was approved for sale to Yugoslavia in 1990).

Recce version, IJ-22M was supposed to carry Vinten 880, 753A and  Vinten Linescan 401 recce pods, and VRTIO-VK /VRTIO-ZK automatic picture/video transfer system.

- Retirement of J-21 light attackers and G-2 trainers until 1999. All non moderznized MiG-21s were supposed to be retired until end of 1999.

 

Navy:

- River artillery boat:

Armament would be 1 x 76mm (in PT-76 turret), 128/32 M77 launcher, 1 x AK-630 AA gun, up the 6 20/1mm M75 guns, ATGM launcher (aparently from retired 9P133 SP-ATGM). FC would be augmented by Giraffe radar and night sights for all armament except 20mm guns and ATGMs. Two units were planned.

- Novi Sad river minesweepers, improvement of existing Nestin class, with 30/2mm AA guns on front, and 20/4mm on the rear deck.

More later.

 

Do you know whay Mi-24 were planed for Nis

[Pavel Novak]

On paper 12 aircraft were in squadron but at some point and esspecially for MiG-21 and Su-7 it was aimed at 16 aircraft in squadron but not in whole regiment.

For example 6th FBR got originally 44 MiG-21MF (16+16+12) but later there were less aircrafts as some were trasnferred to other units. The issue is that aircrafts rotated through general maintenance and sometimes they were after repair sent to different unit.

Also apart of MiG-23MF there weren't enough MiG-23ML and MiG-23BN bought to fully equip existing squadrons so two MiG-23ML squadrons had in total 17 aircraft and three MiG-23BN squadrons had in total 32 aircrafts (later less due to crashes).

In 1983 there should be 41 fighters in 8th FAR but there was aircraft exchange in mid 1980s. Unfortunatelly I don't have exact numbers what exactly was available. There are some squadron reports but not for whole period.

Edited August 26, 2023 by Pavel Novak

[bojan]

1 hour ago, Perun said:

Do you know whay Mi-24 were planed for Nis

Rumor is that they were supposed to be used as paratrooper support mainly, but that is not certain. What is certain is that there was no requirement for more than 16.

[Perun]

Hvala 😉

[Darth Stalin]

On 8/26/2023 at 7:06 PM, Pavel Novak said:

On paper 12 aircraft were in squadron but at some point and esspecially for MiG-21 and Su-7 it was aimed at 16 aircraft in squadron but not in whole regiment.

For example 6th FBR got originally 44 MiG-21MF (16+16+12) but later there were less aircrafts as some were trasnferred to other units. The issue is that aircrafts rotated through general maintenance and sometimes they were after repair sent to different unit.

Also apart of MiG-23MF there weren't enough MiG-23ML and MiG-23BN bought to fully equip existing squadrons so two MiG-23ML squadrons had in total 17 aircraft and three MiG-23BN squadrons had in total 32 aircrafts (later less due to crashes).

In 1983 there should be 41 fighters in 8th FAR but there was aircraft exchange in mid 1980s. Unfortunatelly I don't have exact numbers what exactly was available. There are some squadron reports but not for whole period.

It's very interesting - seems that tthe CSLA purchased not so many MiG-21s as I thought before, especially the PFM and M/MF variants. And that explains, why they used the obsolete MiG-21F-13 till the late 80s (I remembver tyhe film about Shchit-84 exercies in Czechoslovakia, where there were shown those old aricraft). Maybe that's because they were produced in Czechoslovakia, so they had spare parts available etc.?

Anyway, in regiments with mixed equipment, like MiG-21F-13 and PFM/M/MA, what were the numbers of planes in squadrons? 12? 16?  something between?

I wonder, what numbers would be in case of retiring oldest variants (as in case of Poland in late 80s, when PFGs were written off) - i.e. F-134 and PF but with retaining all of the existing regiments (say, awaiting rearmament with MiG-29 or so).

BTW: I've read about the East German plans to sell their small number of MiG-23BNs (only about 20 planes) and replace them completely with Su-25s. Did You now if there were some talks etc. between GDR and Czechoslovakia to sell thgese NVA MiGs to CSLA, thus enlarging the Czechoslovak fleet? And what could Czechoslovaks offer to East Germans? Maybe more RM-70s MRLs?  Or more T-72s?

[Pavel Novak]

CSLA purchased in total 466 MiG-21:

 

169 MiG-21F-13 and MiG-21FR

- including replacement for the ones lended to Syria but not returned

- MiG-21FR is military designation for late series which had additional wiring for carrying domestic underwing recce pods

39 MiG-21PF

50 MiG-21PFM

25 MiG-21R

24 MiG-21M

102 MiG-21MF

11 MiG-21U

13 MiG-21US

33 MiG-21UM

 

Also production of MiG-21FR ended only in 1972 so these ones were newer than all MiG-21PF and PFM and because they had gun one could argue that in some roles they were better than PF and PFM.

Number of aircrafts in squadron fluctuated a lot but it can be said that MiG-21 regiments had on average 40 fighters in three squadrons plus flight of twoseaters for training and another flight of L-29 or L-39 and one or two liaison helicopters. In case of state air defence regiments in 1980s they got L-39ZA which were used for interception of slow and low flying aircrafts and helicopters. Some L-29 were used in this role too and for some time also MiG-15 in 1970s.

There was also 1st training aviation regiment in Prerov which had two squadrons with MiG-21 with about 40 of them. A lot of them were twoseaters but there were MiG-21F-13/FR in service up to 1991.

New aircrafts were bought with aim to have 12 aircraft in squadron and thus 36 in regiment plus training ones. However only with Su-25K this was achieved in 1980s (it was quite cheap in comparison to others).

There weren't enough money for MiG-23 numbers and the air force wasn't really happy with them anyway. I doubt that they would want to buy east german ones. Esspecially as Su-22M4 was fighter bomber which finally sort of coresponded to what air force wanted from it. Its predecessors Su-7BM/BKL and MiG-23BN were seen here as failure.

I can further say that originally it was planned that Su-7BKL would serve longer in waiting for proper replacement and this was probably valid also for MiG-21 variants. But in 1988 were accepted first reduction plan which in case of air force ment that 4th Fighter aviation regiment disbandment in 1989. But in 1989 new plan was accepted which reflected CFE negotiation and which called for uniting state air defence command and aviation command and reduction of 10th Aviation army to just Aviation Corps.

[Stuart Galbraith]

Didnt you still have Mig15's in service in the early 1980's as well?

[Pavel Novak]

Yes. 30th Fighter bomber aviation regiment had MiG-15bisSB till 1983.

[Darth Stalin]

Great info, Pavel, thank You!!!

[alejandro_]

Thanks Pavel for all the work/compilation. For those who are interested in MiG-23s in Czechoslovak Air Force an online book (in English) can be found here. It seems MiG-23 were not that unpopular but pricey...

In the MiG-23, the Czechoslovak Air Force received a high performance aircraft that exceeded its predecessor in all respects. It was a much better aircraft with a higher speed, higher rate of climb, a higher ceiling and a better range. However, it was also a more complicated piece of equipment and consequently significantly more expensive. A new MiG-23MF cost 30 million CZK (Czechoslovak Crowns) while a MiG-21PFM was going for 9 million CZK. Taking this into consideration, the MiG23MF was about six times the cost of a MiG-21. The high price of the Flogger and the saturation of supersonic equipment within its units meant that the Czechoslovak Air Force only used the MiG-23MF as a top-up measure. It was a similar use that was seen with the MiG-17 and 19 that merely supplemented units flying the MiG-15, and the MiG-23 fulfilled the same role with respect to the widespread MiG-21 and even the Su-7.

https://www.eduard.com/out/media/11120-bedna-english-translation.pdf

[Pavel Novak]

On 8/26/2023 at 6:50 PM, Pavel Novak said:

For better view 1988 situation:

 

State Air Defence Command

 - 3rd State Air Defence Division

-- 1st Fighter Aviation Regiment (Plana) - 2x squadron MiG-23ML, 1x squadron MiG-21MF

// in 1989 rearmed third squadron to MiG-23MF

-- 11th Fighter Aviation Regiment (Zatec) - 1x squadron MiG-23MF, 2x squadron MiG-21PFM

// in 1989 rearmed first squadron to MiG-29

 - 2nd State Air Defence Division

-- 8th Fighter Aviation Regiment (Brno) - 1x squadron MiG-21PFM, 1x squadron MiG-21PF, 1x squadron mix of MiG-21PF and MiG-21F-13

// in 1989 rearmed first squadron to MiG-21MF, rearmed second squadron to MiG-21PFM, disbanded third squadron without replacement

 

Aviation Command

- 10th Aviation Army

-- 1st Fighter Aviation Division

--- 4th Fighter Aviation Regiment (Pardubice) - 2x squadron MiG-21MF/"MA", 1x squadron MiG-21F-13/FR

// in 1989 regiment disbanded

--- 5th Fighter Aviation Regiment (Dobrany) - 2x squadron MiG-21MF/"MA", 1x squadron MiG-21F-13/FR

// in 1989 rearmed third squadron to MiG-21MF/"MA"

--- 9th Fighter Aviation Regiment (Bechyne) - 1x squadron MiG-21MF, 1x squadron MiG-21PF, 1x squadron MiG-21F-13/FR

// during 1988 rearmed second squadron to MiG-21MF and third squadron to MiG-21PF

// in 1989 rearmed third squadron to MiG-21MF/"MA"

-- 34th Fighter Bomber Aviation Division

--- 6th Fighter Bomber Aviation Regiment (Prerov) - 3x squadron MiG-21MF

// during 1988 rearmed first squadron to Su-22M4

--- 20th Fighter Bomber Aviation Regiment (Namest nad Oslavou) - 1x squadron Su-22M4, 2x squadron Su-7BKL

// in 1989 rearmed second squadron to Su-22M4 and disbanded third squadron without replacement

--- 28th Fighter Bomber Aviation Regiment (Caslav) - 3x squadron MiG-23BN

--- 30th Assault Aviation Regiment (Pardubice) - 3x squadron Su-25K

-- 47th Reconnaissance Aviation Regiment (Hradec Kralove) - 1x squadron Su-22M4(R), 2x squadron MiG-21R, 2x squadron L-29R

// not sure here but may be MiG-21R squadrons and L-29R squadrons were merged

I was looking little bit more to 8th Fighter Aviation Regiment and it doesn't had enough MiG-21PFM for whole squadron in 1988/89 so its first squadron was mix of MiG-21PFM and MiG-21PF. When it received MiG-21MF in 1989 for first squadron the second squadron became this mix of MiG-21PFM and MiG-21PF. And these "PF"still operated in first half of 1990 but by mid of year ended their career.

Edited September 16, 2023 by Pavel Novak

[Pavel Novak]

On 9/12/2023 at 2:43 PM, alejandro_ said:

Thanks Pavel for all the work/compilation. For those who are interested in MiG-23s in Czechoslovak Air Force an online book (in English) can be found here. It seems MiG-23 were not that unpopular but pricey...

In the MiG-23, the Czechoslovak Air Force received a high performance aircraft that exceeded its predecessor in all respects. It was a much better aircraft with a higher speed, higher rate of climb, a higher ceiling and a better range. However, it was also a more complicated piece of equipment and consequently significantly more expensive. A new MiG-23MF cost 30 million CZK (Czechoslovak Crowns) while a MiG-21PFM was going for 9 million CZK. Taking this into consideration, the MiG23MF was about six times the cost of a MiG-21. The high price of the Flogger and the saturation of supersonic equipment within its units meant that the Czechoslovak Air Force only used the MiG-23MF as a top-up measure. It was a similar use that was seen with the MiG-17 and 19 that merely supplemented units flying the MiG-15, and the MiG-23 fulfilled the same role with respect to the widespread MiG-21 and even the Su-7.

https://www.eduard.com/out/media/11120-bedna-english-translation.pdf

Price was definitely the reason for not buying more of MiG-23. But in service eventually it was found that MiG-23BN isn't really that great. This was universal in NSWP countries - all who used MiG-23BN opted for Su-22M4 instead of MiG-27 in second half of 1980s - or even already in 1984 in czechoslovak case. MiG-23MF/ML were very demanding on pilots so with few of them in the air force it worked quite fine as top pilots used them.

Edited September 16, 2023 by Pavel Novak

[alejandro_]

On 9/16/2023 at 7:20 PM, Pavel Novak said:

Price was definitely the reason for not buying more of MiG-23. But in service eventually it was found that MiG-23BN isn't really that great. This was universal in NSWP countries - all who used MiG-23BN opted for Su-22M4 instead of MiG-27 in second half of 1980s - or even already in 1984 in czechoslovak case. MiG-23MF/ML were very demanding on pilots so with few of them in the air force it worked quite fine as top pilots used them.

MiG-23BN had rather simple avionics compared to MiG-27, which was a complex aircraft that required well trained pilots. It was also more expensive and only exported to India (by Soviet Union), I assume because they paid in $.

Do you know if it was ever offered to Czechoslovakia? Bulgaria, East Germany and and of course Czechoslovakia only got MiG-23BN.

[Pavel Novak]

I do not agree. Original MiG-27 had same avionics suite like MiG-23BN. Changes were that it could carry 4 tons of bombs instead of 3, new gun and chaff/flare dispenser but located extremely badly under fuselage and unusable if anything was carried here.

Limited production of MiG-27K is the only advanced variant able to use laser quided bombs but still inferior to Su-17M4 when it comes ARM and defensive suite.

MiG-27M (main production) and MiG-27D (modernization of basic MiG-27) had same avionics as contemporary production of Su-17M3 and Su-17M4 except inability to use recon pods, ARM, ECM pods, much worse chaff/flare placement (and much less in comparison to late Su-17M4).

No idea if it was offered here but it was available to India so it probably could be on table if there was any interest.

Edited September 26, 2023 by Pavel Novak

[alejandro_]

3 hours ago, Pavel Novak said:

Limited production of MiG-27K is the only advanced variant able to use laser quided bombs but still inferior to Su-17M4 when it comes ARM and defensive suite.

MiG-27M (main production) and MiG-27D (modernization of basic MiG-27) had same avionics as contemporary production of Su-17M3 and Su-17M4 except inability to use recon pods, ARM, ECM pods, much worse chaff/flare placement (and much less in comparison to late Su-17M4).

No idea if it was offered here but it was available to India so it probably could be on table if there was any interest.

I was referring to the advanced versions, but you have a point with the pods and other features. If Sukhoi was cheaper and more simple to operate, why would some operators prefer MiG-27? Commonality with MiG-23?

[Pavel Novak]

To be honest I don't know. The start of development as MiG-23B had sense as viability of Su-17 was not clear at that time. Also when air force used MiG-23MF/ML and BN it shared UB for training so some commonality was there.

But in my opinion the USSR decision makers should made decision at some point in time (second half of 1970s) and choose to produce Su-17 or MiG-23BN/27 but not both. But hey they went for three different tanks so why not also two different fighter bombers in same category.

[urbanoid]

What was the price comparison between MiG-23BN/MiG-27 and Su-22M4?

[bojan]

IIRC, MiG-23BN was offered to Yugoslavia for about 30% higher price than MiG-21bis. No idea how it compared with Su-22M4 price.

Problem with 23BN was that while it could haul ~3 times as much ordnance as MiG-21bis, it's attack computer was subpar and it could not really deliver ordnance with any kind of decent accuracy.

 

On 9/26/2023 at 7:28 PM, Pavel Novak said:

To be honest I don't know. The start of development as MiG-23B had sense as viability of Su-17 was not clear at that time...

Insurance policy in case one fails and then sunken cost fallacy not wanting to ditch one?

 

Looking backward, Su-22M4 was one of the best tactical PGM platforms of the '80s. Jaguar actually took a while to get there, up the early '90s upgrades.

Edited March 12 by bojan

[Stuart Galbraith]

I remember from Yefim Gordons book, the Soviets trialled Su17M4 in Afghanistan, when they were largely using Mig27 up to that point. Presumably someone wasnt happy with the bombing accuracy.

[bojan]

MiG-27s, even in base version had improved bombing computer, compared to MiG-23BN. IIRC employment in Afghanistan was mostly based on which military district stuff belonged to.

 

[alejandro_]

I checked MiG-23 book by Yefim Gordon and it seems that MiG-23/27 was promoted by the then new head of the Air Force, Chief Marshal of Aviation Kutakhov, who was a strong MiG- supporter. Commonality with MiG-27M was seen as a plus.

Su-17  on the other hand was created following official specifications for new generation fighter bomber. 

The reference is Famous Russian Aircraft: Mikoyan MiG-23 and MiG-27, by Yefim Gordon. Crecy Publishing (2019).

[Stuart Galbraith]

I think it was the companion volume on Su17 I read it in, IIRC. Gordon to my memory (and apologies if im wrong,because I read it some years ago) suggested it was actually embarked on as a trial, to compare it to Mig27.

Im not entirely sure why they would be doing that, but at the time it happened (I think it was 85 or 86).

 

[Pavel Novak]

20 hours ago, bojan said:

MiG-27s, even in base version had improved bombing computer, compared to MiG-23BN. IIRC employment in Afghanistan was mostly based on which military district stuff belonged to.

 

You are right. It was improved but it was still based on Fon laser range finder. My point is that when mentioning MiG-27 most of people think about ability to use advanced ordnance like laser quided bombs while in reality except MiG-27K it was worse than contemporary Su-17 variants and that including export Su-22 variants.

[Stuart Galbraith]

I was darkly amused to see the documentary about the 30mm cannon on it that used to shake the instrument panel to bits.

[Darth Stalin]

On 9/27/2023 at 8:50 AM, Stuart Galbraith said:

I remember from Yefim Gordons book, the Soviets trialled Su17M4 in Afghanistan, when they were largely using Mig27 up to that point. Presumably someone wasnt happy with the bombing accuracy.

Nope, in Afghanistan they used mostly Su-17M3 and M4 of the units they sent there for a "komandirovka" ("deployment in field"). MiG-27s were sent there only in late war 1987-88, from 2 regts of Turkestan/Central Asian MD.